All funded traders with Patak Trading Partner sign trader agreements to trade with PTP for at least 1 year (this is completely standard with all prop firms). Each year we renew and if a trader is very profitable and wants to go on their own we will do what we can to keep that talent with PTP. TopstepTrader found the talent. PTP will do what we can to keep it. We try to get our traders to think of themselves as athletes that are extremely good at what they do. Like sports, your current organization that found you will offer what they can to keep you but ultimately when your contract expires you become a free agent and can do what you want. mp
Michael, I'm in Houston at the moment. I'll be back in Chicago next week (Wednesday). I'm going to take you up on that drink!
People you know does matter a lot. But track records matter also, especially anything > 4-5 yrs across different market conditions and it matters a whole lot. Thanks for the invite but I am not in Chicago, so maybe next time.
gmst to answer this to the best of my ability: 1) You are not going to change your commission structure, even if its going to cost 9000 USD or more per year to a successful trader trading 150k account at Patak. Yes we will definiely work to get the best for that trader but until you prove that you are the big profitable trader we can not go to our clearing firm and restructure commissions with no evidence. 2) I still think Combine objectives are way too tough, especially because performance has to be met on every 10 day/20 day basis. Combine objectives are fair yet challenging like the markets. We need to find traders that are producing. Our smallest account is 30k account size $500 limit. You would need to have a trading average of $250 and meet the scouting criteria to get financially backed. This is an average. So over the 10 day Combine you need to show you can produce at least $250 on an average and meet at least 2 of the 3 performance requirements (avg win greater than avg loss, total win % greater than 45, and avg win duration greater than avg loss duration). The performance requirements are basics mechanics of trading. We all got in this business to put up this type of money or greater. We don't trade for the sake of trading we trade to make money. The Combine allows the creme to come to the top therefore showing who can trade today's market and giving us a chance to get that person on a funded account. 3) I still think on a 50k account asking a trader to put in a trailing stop after 500$ in profit is nonsensical. This limit should be increased to at least 1500$-2000$ for it to make sense. Remember, in trading we want winners to be 'generally' larger than losers. EDIT: Another way you can define the trailing limit is by defining it in number of points rather than dollars. So, for example ES: a trader must put in a trailing stop after trade is 8-10 points in his favor. gmst- trade how you like. Just meet the scouting criteria and profit of the Combine. My final suggestion to you is that - once a trader goes live, make him adhere to performance objective over say every 50 or 100 trading days instead of every 10 or 20 trading days. This would increase the odds of retention of a trader in live trading by a HUGE margin and you might have a serious business of finding, funding and retaining good traders. 10 day/20 day is just a churning model. Simply because over time, vol changes, market character changes, there are good months, there are slow months. So, "LIVE" traders should be evaluated over a longer period rather than on a 10 day or a 20 day basis for the model to make sense. gmst- When a trading goes live they do not have a 10 day or 20 day objective. They have no profit target. They talk to their head coach each week and the head coach discusses if they are performing and meeting the basic metrics. If you are producing you have nothing to worry about, if you are breaking even you have nothing to worry about, if you are losing in the account and not meeting the performance requirements then yes that is something for a prop firm to be concerned about. mp
This answers my question from the other thread. It looks like I was right. GMST, are you clear on this now? I thought it was spelled out pretty directly on his website with the "no profit objectives" but I understand that pdf file contradicted it a little. Also, it looks like they only ask you to use trailing stops until you build a little bit of capital then you don't have to. FWIW, most prop firms at the beginning do what they can to get guys to lock in some p&l so they can start building equity at the beginning. It's annoying but it works out for your benefit.
Yes, I see that Patak has sorted out the PDF discrepancy. I am surprised none of the traders who actually filled that PDF noted it before - I guess Patak has been running for probably more than a year now. I am not against trailing stop, but a 500$ limit is too low imo. As I said, ultimately Patak will have to decide if he is ready to increase this limit, its his company. But, I can't buy that a 500$ trail limit is ok.
Thanks! Alright, good to know clearly that there are no profit objectives but a trader has to watch out for risks. But what is the exact condition under which you cut-off the LIVE trader and send him back to Combine. These set of conditions is not written anywhere on the website. And I think you ought to have a clear policy on this and this needs to be clearly spelled out and put on the website. E.g. if a LIVE trader has been profitable for 20 trading days 2 times consecutively and has made 1800$ till now. If on 3rd 20 day period, he loses 600$, will you send him back to combine? You see what I am saying. The set of rules should be clearly spelled out. For otherwise, your operation smells of a Combine-Live-Combine-Live churning scheme.
To be fair, I've been reading his site for awhile and I only noticed that pdf file in the last couple of months. I NEVER saw it posted before. I honestly think that is a new addition. As for the trailing stop, let's be honest for a second, that is on a 50k account, the 2nd smallest combine. That combine you only have to make $250 a day to get funded right. And you believe, no you STATED, that was a steep objective. To make $250. If you are up over $500 on a day with THAT account, which is twice more then what you STATED was difficult to do, do you really think this is an issue? Be honest. My guess is on an account that small, the avg guy is going to make $150 to $200 a day avg. That is a small account. If he is up over $500 on any one day, that day is going to be an outlier no? I mean you're a numbers guy right so you see where I'm going with this. Having a $500 day is HUGE on that particular account. So if one is up $800 let's say and they ask you to stop at $500, and again, only during the first 5k of p&l I believe, how is that unreasonable. By your own admission, you never even expect to hit that mark much less exceed it. Do you follow?
I guess it's better to let Michael answer this but my guess is they will not cut you off till you go negative. In other words, if you are on the 50k and are up 1800 and you drop 600, you are still good. If you drop 1800, you are probably still good. I think once you go negative, that is when they will have a talk with you. This is precisely why I think they want you to lock in those good days in the beginning to build up p&l so you can trade more freely and not have to worry about being cut off. I'm going to guess if you had 30k in open p&l, they will let you give back ALL that money before they stop you. That's my guess. Now, you should NOT let that happen obviously but I think they will give you the rope if you want to hang yourself.