Testing 1,2,3.

Discussion in 'Prop Firms' started by CQNC, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. CQNC


    I just found Patak Trading Partners LLC's topsteptrader.com site, called the "Combine". It's a simulated, live futures trading site, designed to evaluate and weed out (or rather, rise to the top for recruiting purposes) prospective futures traders to work for the firm and managing firm client capital as futures CTAs.
    I had thought originally it would be expensive, but I think $65 for a month's testing is relatively cheap, probably just covers their live data feed to the simulated live account.
    As usual, wondering if anyone out there has given this a try, because my instincts tell me this Patak is one smart cookie for thinking this up...
  2. Maverick74


    That looks a lot like what Pulsar Capital is doing but probably an improvement. There is only thing on that site that raises a little caution. When asked on the FAQ if the trader can stay remote or do they have to trade from the firm office that hires them when they go live. They imply that you can stay remote. Now, I'll keep an open mind about this, but as of now, I can't name a single firm that would let anyone trade futures with firm capital from a remote location.

    So here is my "theory". Again, I may be dead wrong on this. If a trader wins the combine or gets selected to trade a live account with a so called "firm", they will not need to deposit capital however this firm will tell them they need to go through their training program as do all new hires before they can go live and that program cost is 5k. I know I am being cynical here but I think it's a possibility.
  3. CQNC


    Why did I know you'd be the first/only trader to reply or know anything about this. LOL.

    I don't know Pulsar, but will do my leg work now that you've made the comparison.

    The way I look at it, if I'm "winning" their Combine test, and it's not about beating anyone else, it's about showing a consistent trading style and decision-making process and risk management ability towards profitability, and I'm "selected" as a future client fund manager (because they claim to be paired up with a client if you "pass")...
    I'm getting sick of using quotations to emphasise my "skepticism" here....
    then I sincerely doubt a CTA prop firm is going to ask for risk capital. Not on futures trading at least. What would be the point of that? A losing trader would blow that out in a single bad trade leveraged at 100:1.
    So no, I suspect it's more than just legitimate, I suspect it's a fucking brilliant way of flushing out the bugs.

  4. Maverick74


    Well my suspicion rests on the fact that I have seen this somewhere before. It was exactly the same except they disclosed up front there was a training cost. I can't for the life of me remember the firm that did this, but it was almost completely identical in every way. Check out Pulsar Capital though, it's the same but slightly different.

    You basically trade on a demo for 4 weeks. It cost like $350 or something. If you meet their performance requirements, you get backed 100%, no questions asked. However, they are very clever in that they make their sharpe requirement rather high at 4. I think you need to earn a 3% return, no down days above a certain % and a sharpe over 4. If you do that, then they outline exactly how you will trade in terms of number of contracts and so forth. Check it out.

  5. CQNC


    I look at kaching.com in the same way, only for stocks, although they converted to some kind of fund management/broker model, which bastardises the testing component of it. The infrastructure behind it, though, is solid. I'd use that to test rookies over this futures system. Keep it simple.
  6. CQNC


    Anything that exists now, has surely been invented in the past. Nothing new there. It's all in the application. I don't think Patak is pyramid'ing this idea to draw in revenue from testers. It may not be the prettiest site either (black ugly like a porn site, but hey, it's not a web design contest, QUESTRADE.com has to be the prettiest POS I've ever seen), but I'm sure it serves the purpose of the test.

    I had thought about this earlier, how presenting past trading results is one way to prove one's ability, sharpe ratio, but it's never as good as trading live. Market conditions always changing, the market where it is now is a bitch of a test for any trader...

    I may try it just to see how my futures trading is doing since I stopped in the 90s.

  7. Maverick74


    I'm all in support of the model. Don't get me wrong. And I agree, this model is interesting. I've always loved the idea of having a farm system for traders. Give it a try and report back to us. Seems like a free or almost free call option for the trader. Hard to beat that.
  8. CQNC


    If I weren't "retired" from drinking the Kool-Aid in dotbomb, silicon valley, I'd think there was a business idea in there somewhere...

    Honestly, and you know this as well as I do, I don't see how a simulation is going to provide accurate results. I, of all people, will freely admit that paper money trading isn't the same as live. However, I will say the methods and decision making processes behind it are similar, if not identical, to trading real money. Many traders, most of whom I disagree with, would disagree, but when it comes down to the grunt work of finding a position, making a decision, finding the trade, setting the position size, the risk analysis, the timing of execution on in and and out, the exercise is the same.

    For the experienced trader, that is. Have to emphasize that, and I can prove this, because I've made the same trades in trading simulations to test my real positions, do it all the time for weeks and months in advance testing theories and hunches, because if I didn't and went in blind and stupid betting the farm on one horse without checking my math, I'd be a fool and my money soon parted.

    I expect this test to last all of a week, maybe two, not the entire month. I'll dedicate the majority of my time during futures trading hours, see how I feel about it over stocks and options, and then see what they offer, if anything. I'm not expecting anything, nor is this a job tryout. I just want to see how I'd do and what they come back with as means of possibly using this method in the future should the opportunity I believe exists in building my own group/fund develop as planned, the best of intentions notwithstanding Murphy fucking it up with one of his many laws.

    This is supposed to be a "fun" job, after all.

  9. CQNC


  10. Maverick74


    #10     Aug 25, 2010