first of all, for disclosure i will point out that i have very strong Christian beliefs.. many people dont understand Islam because for one it is very complicated, and two, there are so many variations of "Islamics".. first of all, Christians and muslims do not believe in the same God.. muslims believe in Allah, with Mohammed being his prophet.. muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, nothing more.. Christians believe in Jehovah, the God of Israel and in the diety of Jesus, as Gods son.. i think its important to realize that there are many variations of Islam.. the vast majority of Islamics are peaceful people who frankly, have a very conservative and disciplined lifestyle.. there are however fanatical fringe groups that take the quoran very literally.. these groups follow the teaching in the quoran that violence is the appropriate method of dealing with others of differing beliefs.. in fact, the quoran advocates forcing conversion under the threat of violence.. in 1997 i spent a couple of months in a muslim village in Bangladesh.. also, i have visited Pakistan.. there is no reason that America cannot live in peace with the vast majority of muslims.. unfortunately, the small group of radicals will never accept peace with Americans because one, we are considered a Christian nation and two, we are not muslim.. not supporting Israel will not diminish the hatred of the fringe groups for the US.. to be at peace with muslim radicals it would take the complete conversion of America to Islam.. one last thought for those who wish to withdraw support from our close ally Israel.. lets not forget that Israel was by our side all through the cold war.. and lets not forget the restraint shown by the Israelis at our request during the gulf war.. i say we stand by Israel, and encourage the Arab neighbors to reach out to their palestinian brothers and open their countries for migration.. and for whomever is responsible for the terror attack on the WTC, i say its time to hold countries responsible for the actions of their citizens.. either they give us the perpetrators, or the countries themselves lose their capital, financial center, cultural relics - everything.. this is no time for negotiations, no time for eloquence.. this is time for war.. -qwik
and you sincerely believe that this would calm the terrorists down, and put a stop on further attacks? oh boy... - jaan
If you want a truthful and well informed discourse on Israelis and "Palestinians", and why the US is right in its support of Israel, check out this link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066 Here are excerpts: If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right? Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? "Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war. The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power. Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem. Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct. I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites." Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem. So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham. The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism? So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.
my thoughts: 1. elitetrader has done it again: spawning a thread packed with well thought-out and educative posts. 2. babak & vvv, please chill out -- you're not really in disagreement, just referring to different manifestations of islam. 3. while US distancing from israel would probably lessen the probability of further terrorist attacks on US soil, it would definitely regarded as success from terrorists' point of view. 4. people touched personally by such tragedies have natural right to feel general hatred towards countries/nations that host the terrorists. however, it is the duty of others to support them in their grief while making sure that their hatred would not be channeled into actions that further fuel the cycle of violence. 5. the only efficacious reactions to the horrible events would be those that decrease terrorists' ABILITY to perform further attacks, while NOT increasing their MOTIVATION. 6. following from (5), ramping up security measures will definitely qualify. military action will only qualify to the extent of every kill (ie motivation booster) being outweighted by the amount of material or personell damage (imprisonment) to terrorists. - jaan
Thank you for the great post zboy--Im going to pass this marvelous piece on to others. It's so well done. Israel is a stauch ally -a friend-in a savage and barbaric land not to mention that half the naz is made up of Israeli companies(well maybe not half). The brain power that comes out of this tiny country is extraordinary. I spent 1 and a half years there. The transformation --what they've done to this diminutive piece of desert boggles the mind.
FWIW (and frankly, i don't know what it's worth! but the words are somewhat eerie considering modern history), here is an excerpt from another article by the author (Joseph Farah) that zboy linked to: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. -- Zechariah 12:3"
Oh yeah-js1257-- as saddam would say--this is gonna be the mother of all asskickings--We have to convince (them?) to cut it out. Make it crystal clear they have to stop. It's gonna take some severe arm twisting. It's gonna be big,baby big.
I'm glad we're on the right side of this one. Take a look at Israel on the map. Wow. I've read there were many amazing victories in their battles back in 67'--almost like they had someone helping them? hmmm?