Swing trading with Butterflies

Discussion in 'Journals' started by Global OptionsTrades, Jul 30, 2021.


  1. Thanks James

    Q1 I'm using an approach that is probably different to most, running scenarios for a range of structures around a fixed body that is OtM.

    As an example for the DAX position yesterday, I had the following choices:

    121 15450/15600/15750 @ 24.25
    132 15300/15600/15750 @ 62
    231 15450/15600/15900 @ 96

    MonteCarlo Simulation for the parameters I chose gave the following expected mean returns:

    121 38.6%
    132 45.6%
    231 12.0%

    Standard Deviation of returns was broadly similar for all three but lowest for 132, so Sharpe Ratio also favoured the 132.

    Those simulated returns grouped by DTE look like this:

    upload_2021-8-28_12-23-11.png

    I place a range of BtC orders within that range, and if the simulated expected returns do not exceed my target returns, I obviously do not trade the position. When we spoke the other day, I mentioned that Bullish trades have been eliminated for these reasons (and/or insufficent skew) which has not been helpful in a Bull market so I probably need to amend the approach.

    Q2. I use the Straddle around the Body to determine width. Keen to hear how others do this, why and what works best.



    Edit: not sure why DTE legend on chart is obscured - its from 7 down to zero.
     
    #51     Aug 28, 2021
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  2. jamesbp

    jamesbp

    Andy

    Thanks for detailed/interesting response ... couple of follow up qustions

    #1 Interested to see what your thinking is of using Monte-Carlo sim to evaluate what are essentially discrete trades

    #2 Strike width ... are you saying you use the ATM straddle to determine the Fly Wing-Body strike width ?

    #3 I know it is slightly 'old school' ... but I like to dissect my wingspread positions into their embedded fly positions ... are you aware that the 132 / 231 Flies are essentially combinations of 3 x 121 Flies ... and in both the 132 / 231 Flies that you were looking at on the DAX ... include buying 2 x the 121 Base Fly (15450-15600-15750) + 1 x other Fly ... see below

    ET_FlyStructure_01.png

    #4 I know there is a lot of 'secret sauce' talked about the 132/231 Structure ... but in reality ... it appears to be overcomplicating a relatively straight forward Fly position ... but am open to be persuaded otherwise
     
    #52     Aug 28, 2021
    Global OptionsTrades and caroy like this.
  3. Thanks @jamesbp

    Brief responses to your points in order:

    #1 Interested to see what your thinking is of using Monte-Carlo sim to evaluate what are essentially discrete trades

    There is only any value in the exercise simulating the combo.

    #2 Strike width ... are you saying you use the ATM straddle to determine the Fly Wing-Body strike width ?

    No. The body straddle, which is usually OtM.

    #3 I know it is slightly 'old school' ... but I like to dissect my wingspread positions into their embedded fly positions ... are you aware that the 132 / 231 Flies are essentially combinations of 3 x 121 Flies ... and in both the 132 / 231 Flies that you were looking at on the DAX ... include buying 2 x the 121 Base Fly (15450-15600-15750) + 1 x other Fly ... see below

    Yes.

    #4 I know there is a lot of 'secret sauce' talked about the 132/231 Structure ... but in reality ... it appears to be overcomplicating a relatively straight forward Fly position ... but am open to be persuaded otherwise

    No intention to portray any secret sauce or proprietory IP on my behalf.
    Per post #51, I simply compare the expected return for a variety of structures and choose what I expect to be most profitable.
     
    #53     Aug 31, 2021
  4. jamesbp

    jamesbp

    Andy

    Thanks for detailed feedback.

    I would be interested the next time you are considering a 231/123 type structure, if you could also evaluate the "approximately equivalent" 121 type structure ( essentially buying the furthest / cheapest OTM baby fly to complete the set )

    For example

    ET_FlyStructure_02.png

    ET_FlyStructure_03.png
     
    #54     Sep 1, 2021
    Global OptionsTrades likes this.
  5. Thanks James; will do.
    I'm away on holiday for a couple of weeks so will pick up here when back.
     
    #55     Sep 6, 2021
  6. caroy

    caroy

    wishing you a relaxing safe trip.
     
    #56     Sep 7, 2021
    Global OptionsTrades likes this.
  7. Whilst on holiday, I inexplicably and ill-advisedly put on two trades 'by the pool'. Both were placed in small size, and in each case 'on a hunch' without doing any analysis, so opposite to my usual disciplined and analytic approach.

    Trade date: 08 September 2021
    Security: SPX
    Direction: Put
    Expiry date: 10 September 2021
    Strikes: 4455 / 4465 / 4475
    Structure: 1 / 2 / 1
    Opening Spread: 0.45
    Close date: 10 September 2021
    Trade duration: 2
    Closing spread: 3.02
    Profit / (Loss): 2.57
    Profit / (Loss): 571.1%

    Trade date: 16 September 2021
    Security: VIX
    Direction: Call
    Expiry date: 21 September 2021
    Strikes: 20 / 22 / 24
    Structure: 1 / 2 / 1
    Opening Spread: 0.19

    This experimental VIX trade partially closed sufficiently to recoup its cost as VIX rose on Friday. I'll update tomorrow when the remaining portion has filled or expired.

    Compared to my disastrous performance through August, perhaps there is merit in trading under-the-influence of tempranillo and cerveza more often! :D
     
    #57     Sep 20, 2021
  8. The VIX trade closed in profit as volatility increased from c.19 on Thursday to c.25 today.

    Trade date: 16 September 2021
    Security: VIX
    Direction: Call
    Expiry date: 21 September 2021
    Strikes: 20 / 22 / 24
    Structure: 1 / 2 / 1
    Opening Spread: 0.19
    Close date: 21 September 2021
    Trade duration: 5
    Closing spread: 0.35
    Profit / (Loss): 0.16
    Profit / (Loss): 82.1%
     
    #58     Sep 21, 2021
    caroy likes this.
  9. Slightly out of order due to being away but the DAX position (#50) closed at a profit a couple of weeks ago.

    Trade date: 27 August 2021
    Security: DAX
    Direction: Put
    Expiry date: 03 September 2021
    Strikes: 15850 / 15700 / 15550
    Structure: 1 / 2 / 1
    Opening Spread: 24.9
    Close date: 03 September 2021
    Trade duration: 7
    Closing spread: 38.1
    Profit / (Loss): 13.2
    Profit / (Loss): 52.9%
     
    #59     Sep 21, 2021
    caroy likes this.
  10. Popped a longer duration (16 DTE) short on S&P500.

    Trade date: 22 September 2021
    Security: SPX
    Price at opening: 4404
    Direction: Put
    Expiry date: 08 October 2021
    Strikes: 4210 / 4305 / 4400
    Structure: 1 / 2 / 1
    Opening Spread: 10.35
     
    #60     Sep 22, 2021