You will be interested in this Gee. Both groups recieved same medical treatment but different dietary regime. Objective scans of hearts were performed. High protein group got worse despite their diet "they believed would "improve" their overall health." Enjoy. ps Arguing with axe is arguing with a horse's ass. Been there, done that, never again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow. Fleming RM. The Fleming Heart and Health Institute and the Camelot Foundation, Omaha, Nebraska 68114, USA. rfmd1@uswest.net Recent research has demonstrated that successful simultaneous treatment of multiple risk factors including cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a) [Lp(a)], fibrinogen, antioxidants, endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, infection, and dietary factors can lead to the regression of coronary artery disease and the recovery of viable myocardium. However, preliminary work revealed that a number of individuals enrolled in the original study went on popular high-protein diets in an effort to lose weight. Despite increasing numbers of individuals following high-protein diets, little or no information is currently available regarding the effect of these diets on coronary artery disease and coronary blood flow. Twenty-six people were studied for 1 year by using myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. Treatment was based on homocysteine, Lp (a), C-reactive protein (C-RP), triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and fibrinogen levels. Each variable was independently treated as previously reported. MPI and ECHO were performed at the beginning and end of the study for each individual. The 16 people (treatment group/TG) studied modified their dietary intake as instructed. Ten additional individuals elected a different dietary regimen consisting of a "high-protein" (high protein group/HPG) diet, which they believed would "improve" their overall health. Patients in the TG demonstrated a reduction in each of the independent variables studied with regression in both the extent and severity of coronary artery disease (CAD) as quantitatively measured by MPI. Recovery of viable myocardium was seen in 43.75% of myocardial segments in these patients, documented with both MPI and ECHO evaluations. Individuals in the HPG showed worsening of their independent variables. Most notably, fibrinogen, Lp (a), and C-RP increased by an average of 14%, 106%, and 61% respectively. Progression of the extent and severity of CAD was documented in each of the vascular territories with an overall cumulative progression of 39.7%. The differences between progression and extension of disease in the HPG and the regression of disease in the TG were statistically (p<0.001) significant. Patients following recommended treatment for each of the independent variables were able to regress both the extent and severity of their coronary artery disease (CAD), as well as improve their myocardial wall motion (function) while following the prescribed medical and dietary guidelines. However, individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI) through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.
Highmark expanding coverage for Ornish Program for Reversing Heart Disease "And it still looks promising for Highmark Blue Cross Blue Shield, which began offering the Ornish program free to most of its insurance customers in 1997. Eight local hospitals offer the program, and two years ago Mountain State Blue Cross Blue Shield of West Virginia unveiled the program in seven hospitals there. Since 1997, 900 people here and 260 in West Virginia have enrolled. Most have stuck with the lifestyle and have seen remarkable results. The program is in hospitals in Nebraska and Illinois, and Highmark is working to place it in Minnesota hospitals, including possibly the Mayo Clinic. About 70 people locally enrolled through a four-year Medicare demonstration program set to run through February 2005. Medicare, which spends more than $6 billion annually on heart surgery, wants to see if it should offer the program as a covered benefit. Medicare participants have responded as well as other local enrollees, and Highmark officials hope Medicare will cover the program. The Ornish program has grown from 30 participants in 1997 in Western Pennsylvania, when Highmark took what was then basically a community service and transformed it into a covered insurance benefit. Many saw the move as a breakthrough in the battle against the nation's No. 1 killer." http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04034/268505.stm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pretty good for a "flawed program" eh axie baby. hehheh.
Once again your apparent low IQ misses the point. Its obviously over your statistically challenged head. You CANNOT scientifically compare the Ornish diet to ANY other diet when it ALSO includes so many additional variables which are KNOWN to also have an effect on the very thing we are measuring: HEALTH. AGAIN... you prove you have NO understanding of basic statistics. It amazes me that you cannot grasp such a simple concept. I strongly suggest you go take a basic statistics course. peace axeman
Yes, smoking is a factor but will quitting alone reverse heart disease allowing triple bypass patients to cancel their surgery? Once again... ANOTHER STRAWMAN FALLACY. **DID ANYONE HERE MAKE THAT CLAIM???? *** No. You fabricated it in your own little mind and then attacked it as if someone ELSE made this claim. You DO know what a strawman fallacy is dont you? Because you just committed the very same one again. Either you are learning handicapped, or are brain dead enough to think you can get away with this faulty reasoning on a second try. Let me say this SLOOOOWLY so maybe you will comprehend it this time. Quitting smoking alone is KNOWN to have very beneficial effects on your health, and to include this as part of a diet which you are comparing to DIETS ALONE is an apples and oranges comparison which is completely INVALID. But then again... since you have proven you dont understand basic statistics, this wont make any sense to you either. peace axeman This was the question, can you read? I'm talking specific physical and clinical effects, you're talking general admonitions. Please add me to your ignore list. You reason in circles, lack basic reading comprehension skills, it's really funny to listen to you. LOL. I realize now with the last of your post you can't keep up here. Thanks for the laughs. Go back to religion thread please. You are adequate there (but stu is much much better) [/B][/QUOTE]
Welp... ive wasted enough time with Red Neck GTO. He either IS longdip, or his long lost twin bother. They both have no idea how to reason well. You are officially on my ignore list. Im adding you right this second. I will not be able to read any more of your moronic replies, thus saving myself an incredible amount of time. Have fun talking to yourself. Im pretty sure everyone will be ignoring you from now on peace axeman
Let's put it in terms LS can understand..... Longshot is impotent.....after years of this problem he goes and sees Dr. horny and takes part in a radical experiment....for the next six weeks, longshot is told to eat only Twinkies 24 hours a day, smoke two packs of cigarettes a day, consume at least a twelve pak of Guinness a day and take one Viagra each and every day for a period of six weeks......POOF! Longshot is finally packing wood!.........now, would it be accurate for Hostess to start running ads with Mike Ditka saying " get back in the game, eat twinkies and get a woody"!!!!!......that is precisely what Ornish has done.....all he needs to do though is run the same experiment with only his diet....then measure heart rate and performance...
Bravo TM. Here is a man who understands proper correlations. Clearly something longdip/GTO has proved he is completely incapable of doing. peace axeman
Excellent point. Yes, I am inclined to adjust my environment rather than my inner psychological self. And yes, my diet plan, or any one of the lower-carb, higher-protein plans, may not be the "best" plan possible, especially with respect to longevity.
Well, the "once a day" approach to involvement with this thread is not working for me. It's still too much of a distraction, so I'm going to have to eliminate the stimulus. It would have been fun to post more of our meals and snacks, and have them picked apart, but would have also been way too interesting, engaging, and time-consuming. I greatly appreciate all those who have taken the time to contribute, especially the low-fatters, since one always learns more from those who disagree with you than from those who agree. For those interested in our diet, it might be summarized as (see previous posts for details): - you don't need a diet guru - there's more to dieting than counting calories - pay attention to net carb to protein ratio (i.e., get a balance of carbs and protein) to get most of the major benefits of all of the currently popular lower-carb, higher-protein diets - beyond that, adjust content of diet according to latest scientific findings (we get various health newsletters to track this) For the record, here's our latest pancakes and sausage recipe. It uses 1/3 less sausage and 1/2 less canola oil than the original (the intention being to reduce somewhat the total calories and fat in the original recipe). As with the diet, we're not saying this is perfect in any way, and you can easily adjust its contents to suit your tastes and beliefs. BTW, being a guy, I only cook stuff that is really easy and fast to prepare, and this recipe fits that requirement. makes 2 servings 1/3 of 12 oz. package of Louis Rich Original Turkey Sausage cut into patties and cook in skillet while mixing pancake stuff 1/2 C Arrowhead Mills Perfect Harvest Pancake & Waffle Mix 1/2 C skim milk (or soy milk) 1 egg 1/2 T canola oil 1 tsp cinnamon (optional) mix thoroughly and use same skillet, on lower heat, to cook pancakes, flipping them once top with light margarine (trans fat-free), and/or sugar-free syrup, and/or blueberries (Wyman's Wild Blueberries in water have about as much fiber as carbs) for each serving (half of above recipe, w/o toppings): 310 cal 12 g fat 28 g carb 5 g fiber 17 g protein net carb to protein ratio = (28 - 5) / 17 = 1.35 calories from fat are about 35% As noted in previous posts, the sausage is relatively lean, and the pancake mix is based on whole grains. The protein from the whole grains allows us to reduce the amount of meat (protein) used to balance the carbs. Best of eating and trading luck to everyone.