That's the whole point , your statement- "I won't bother to post any more statistical charts about the history of economies in Pandemics but I think the message is very clear." Is wrong because the one thing that is true is that the "message" IS NOT CLEAR, I suspect a lot of countries are eventually going to end up in a very similar place irrespective of lockdown or not , especially large western countries, but again the idea that the "message" as you like to put it , is clear , is untrue. Again Swedens death rate is significantly lower than the UK's at this point ( and we've had what 3 months of lockdown).But yes you not bothering to prove your point with more garbage is doing us all a favour.
I've not question what's going on in the U.K. in comparison to the U.K. Thus, you could be very correct about everything in that regards nor will I ever debate about the U.K...hopefully that's clear. In contrast, I have question Sweden in comparison to its neighbouring countries (specifically Denmark / Norway / Finland) along with a few comparisons thrown in there involving U.S.A. or Brazil. Actually, it would be very misleading / misinformation to make such comparisons without showing the stats involving the worst countries versus the neighbouring countries... The death rate is still too high in Sweden in comparison to those countries. Yet, I have seen people say I'm am wrong, others are wrong whenever those comparisons have been made. The one thing I will agree regardless to the country in comparison...we're only in July and as I stated many times about Pandemics... The statistics change very fast. Sweden is getting a bad rap from its neighbouring countries (Denmark / Norway / Finland) but by the end of the year IF a vaccine has been developed... Sweden's strategy could then been proven correct and it then can hopefully achieve herd immunity which is something that started this topic about Sweden. Until then, without a vaccine, its a poor strategy and has never been accomplish. In fact (shown in the graphs), too many of their citizens are dying in comparison to Brazil, U.S.A., Denmark, Finland, Norway. Once again, the only reason why I throw Brazil and U.S.A. into those comparisons once in awhile is because of the poor leadership and poor management of this Pandemic by those two governments... The question remains, why is Sweden doing so much worst than U.S.A. and Brazil when the whole world see those two particular countries as poor models of what NOT to do while individuals are praising Sweden that the graphs clearly shows a different story ??? If it because Sweden only did a partial lockdown that they (not me) refer to as a "lockdown lite" or is it because of poor management in the government of Sweden or is it because Sweden has bigger social disparities within its population... Other than that, I'm know to not post charts when others have requested. Usually, I only post charts when folks are a little thick in the head or believe we're debating about the same thing or when they make misleading statements regardless if it was intentional or not. Charts are visual and can be very clear, very accurate in comparison to just words like Sweden is performing worst than Denmark, Norway, Finland in the death rate. Actually, those the believe its death rate is VERY LOW or tiny...wouldn't that be saying the death rate in Denmark / Norway / Finland is even smaller ? I think you know the answer to that and you know what others (including I) have been stating as facts in this thread. Once again, I don't follow much about the U.K...everything you say about that country may be true. For what it is worth, those holding up Sweden as a role model...they tend to be from countries (not from Sweden) they believe Sweden is performing much better but those graphs show a different reality...reality of the statistics. Nothing misleading about those comparison stats about the true role models. Also, as shown in the graphs...the economy of Sweden is obviously shrinking. A new point I'm making via facts (graphs) too and Sweden's own government has stated they're very concerned. Simply, there's no need for any misleading info about Sweden's economy when their own government admits there's a problem to correlate with what's shown in the graphs. The statistics are correct...Sweden's economy is shrinking as the forecast models had predicted. An easy fact check to do. I may post more graphs (facts) in the future if someone else shows up to post misleading info whenever someone else that make the comparisons between Sweden / Denmark / Norway / Finland / U.S.A. / Brazil. Sweden is only a role model with the happiness in its citizens about how their government has been responding to the Pandemic crisis. Thus, they are willing to live with their elderly and ethnic minorities dying off although their government has openly admitted about their Pandemic policy that they... May have got it wrong I didn't say the above...Sweden's government said that with about 6 more months remaining in the year. In my opinion, I think Sweden's government used those words (e.g. may have got it wrong) because they want to be transparent as possible and not be put into a position that they misled their citizens. By the way, there will be a vaccine one day. I'm just not going to hold my breadth for its development considering I've seen world governments and the WHO say the exact same thing about a prior Pandemic called HIV. There's still no HIV vaccine...a different type of comparison whenever there's glowing talk about every thing will go back to normal when the vaccine is developed. Spoiler Alert - There's now statistics (graphs) slowly showing up online now that the governments are accumulating more data about the growth in the death rate among the young although overall its low... In reference to U.S.A. because the young there are socially irresponsible at a time when there's an existing huge problem in the health care system and social disparities in its population. Why ? Obesity, diabetes, poor nutrition, other underlying health conditions and social irresponsibility within the young citizens. All life is valuable in all countries. wrbtrader
A vaccine or approved treatment is never worst than the disease. Yet, if you're talking about the lockdown itself... Most countries are not using the lockdown as a cure. Instead, they are using the lockdown to gain more time to improve their preparedness, health care system and to educate / teach its population to take these Pandemics seriously...to prevent it from becoming much worst in its human toll and causing an economic toll that will be more difficult to bounce back from. Yeah, they are being stripped of their liberties (e.g. forced to wear a face mask) and their reaction of not being able to gather in large numbers, hit the bars / restaurants is socially tough for a age group so dependent upon such for their well being. My mom the other day called me to complain that she and her friends had to eat outside in one of her friends backyard instead of being able to eat at their favourite restaurant...a place that requires reservations way in advance. I responded, you're with your friends...outside, eating a very nice home cook meal and breathing fresh air with people you hold next to your heart. Don't let the Pandemic control you...enjoy your time together. wrbtrader
Sweden’s Coronavirus Failure Started Long Before the Pandemic A possible answer to my earlier question about the high death rate in Sweden @ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/2...ers-tegnell-started-long-before-the-pandemic/ I want to point that Sweden's poor performance in their death rate is due to maybe just bad timing in that they had decentralize their public health oversight long before this Covid-19. It only then became a problem when the Pandemic from Covid-19 hit Sweden...allowing the world to compare itself to the healthcare system in Sweden. Sweden lax policy involved making recommendations instead of mandates. Their neighbouring countries Denmark / Norway / Finland understand the problem, sees the problem and had shut their door (borders) to Sweden while opening their borders to other countries that have a lower death rate and better controls in its healthcare system. That's a slap in the face considering Sweden had devised this health care policy specifically to protect their elderly and more vulnerable citizens. Yeah, I heard about these issues many years ago when I saw an article about the best countries to retire to. Sweden was not on that list considering retirement tends to involve the perspective of someone that's an elderly. I had been researching this issue many years ago when my mom (world traveller) wanted to retire someplace in unison with France. I do remember many of the countries on that list of the "best countries to retire"... Today, all of them (every single one of them) have a death rate much lower than Sweden and the prior warnings about Sweden's healthcare system and problems with the government oversight / neglect in its elderly citizens and ethnic minority citizens has been exposed for the world to see. wrbtrader
Well, Sweden never had to do triage, like Texas: https://people.com/health/texas-doctor-forced-to-choose-which-covid-19-patients-get-beds/
It's gone from people in there 50s and 60's, to people in there 20s that's an obvious lie right there unless it's mutated and nobody is has picked up on this yet. Data for Sweden is patchy, days missing and they filtered it maybe removing all the spikes and weekends from the charts, concerns me. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
And Texas 36deaths yesterday, how few of these machines have they got ?? And that's a high average number for them. So yet again a Media FEAR story to get some clicks. Texas 29Mil Population so nearly 3x's NYC but much bigger area so it'll spread slower. so 36 is nothing.
Yeah, you should be concern but not too much considering you do not lived there nor do I. Only they can answer the obvious question...was it worth using a health care policy dependent upon a vaccine when there was no vaccine ? Sweden's prime minister orders an inquiry into the failure of the country's no-lockdown coronavirus strategy https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-opens-inquiry-into-coronavirus-strategy-of-no-lockdown-2020-7 Sweden now has the fifth-highest per capita death rate in the world with a larger death toll than all of its neighbours' combined. Sweden's daily new cases rose to over 1,000 in the last week, up from fewer than 500 in May. Sweden's prime minister said the country must now change its approach. There's a metric chart of the entire testing in Sweden...for the population of Sweden...only about 8 % have developed antibodies. In my opnion, they can't get above 15% of its population with antibodies until a vaccine has been developed and then they can get to the needed 70 - 80% threshold. Yet, if a vaccine is developed...the rest of the world will have access to it too. When its all done and there's herd immunity in the world...they will then wonder if all those people (elderly, ethnic minorities) needed to die for a health care policy used when there was no vaccine available at the time of the policy introduction back in March. Not sure why their top epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell still can't admit they needed a vaccine for their Coronavirus healthcare policy to be successful. https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/07/04/covid-19-is-scrambling-scandinavian-stereotypes wrbtrader
By the way, Thanks for posting statistics to back up the facts coming out of Sweden. Too many people don't look at the statistics while a few refuse to look at the Scandinavian countries in comparison to each other...the latter very strange. Denmark / Norway / Finland are the role models based upon the statistical comparisons. The United States Yeah, Europe did reopen with travel restrictions against the United States...karma is a bitch. wrbtrader