sigh, since i haven't left yet... Anything beyond the bounds of the universe is beyond the bounds of knowledge itself. Incomplete assumption. This is only true of what STAYS beyond the boundaries of the universe. God is able to enter the closed system at will and make His presence and nature known. This is precisely why some can know Him. Reason, not faith, is the operational first priciple. This is semantics. Faith in reason is the operational first principle. Anything you believe 'just because' is based on faith. You do not have to have a definition of faith to practice faith. If you cannot fathom a world without god (as your previous posts suggest), if you cannot bear the possibility of life "having no meaning without god" that is your own pyschological problem. Do not pretend the rest of the world shares your forlorn predicament. I don't pretend anything. I am not the one who walked in here with insults blazing. You could have started with the semi-civil tone of your last post, instead of ending with it. And I'm not interested in what I can 'fathom', I'm interested in what is real. If my certainty offends you, that's not my problem- until you start hurling unnecessary insults. You seem to be a man who does not doubt what he knows to be true. In that we are the same. Why don't we agree to disagree and go our separate ways.