Superstition, Luck and Vodoo

Discussion in 'Trading' started by rs7, Jun 19, 2002.

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  1. Kymar


    Did you note what shirt were you wearing when you started the thread? Or who you were sitting with?
    #741     Jul 15, 2002
  2. rs7


    Hell yeah! Also which candles I had burning, what I ate for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and how I made love with my wife the night before. Also which of my alternate routes I took to my office, which parking spot I used, and what stall and which roll:)
    PS: Read the very first post if you want to know how I really feel.
    #742     Jul 15, 2002
  3. rs7


    This from the second day of this thread....June 20

    #743     Jul 15, 2002
  4. Kymar


    You see, the reason you continually get the goats of whatever atheists, agnostics, or believers in other faiths is that your phraseology clearly presumes that you are right and they are wrong. We all know that you actually believe exactly this to be so, and most of us can cope with that idea, but it's as though you've already built "the last word" into the sentence. Others feel compelled to reply, and inevitably, at least to this point, seem to compel you to reply, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, world without end, amen...

    It's never "I believe that you will only find God" or "I believe that the ultimate decision...," but rather the naked categorical assertions. Sometimes you throw in an "I know" - which only emphasizes an implicit assertion of superiority, at least to whatever extent one holds having knowledge to be superior to remaining ignorant.

    The statement "I believe I know..." may sound like an absurdity, but such qualifications remain embedded, if often unstated, within the scientific worldview, which, once accepted, refuses to accept any categorical statement except as contextualized within some theoretical relativistic framework. At least, I believe I know that I believe that it appears that I know that I believe that it appears that I believe that...

    I can recognize further that for you this position also contains its own presumed "last word" on the subject - in effect a seemingly paradoxical "there can be no last word on the subject" that, if allowed to stand, represents an implicit denial of any claims to certain knowledge. I confess that that's my position, or at least I believe that it appears to be my position... It may amount to a linguistic or philosophical form of the Goedelian paradox that appears to eat away at the roots of mathematics, but does not, all the same, prevent sound mathematics from being performed.

    In this sense, the argument may be definitionally irresolvable, but, in another sense, no real argument is taking place, as the two sides may not even be speaking the same language. The discussion would have to begin an end with an acknowledgment that the alternative position can NEVER be accepted. Such a discussion would not really qualify as a discussion (or debate, or argument) at all. At best, it might qualify as a fight or a clash of wills - a characterization which many on both sides may find unacceptable...
    #744     Jul 15, 2002
  5. rs7


    Kymar pulls even with Darkhorse. Looks like a dead heat!

    :confused: :)
    #745     Jul 15, 2002
  6. Man! Y'all sorry trippers coaxed another long post out of me. Don't you know I'm trying to give these up?


    I agree with you philosophically, though truthfully I'm not sure my certainty is the issue that has made people angry. I have atheist friends who are certain that I am wrong, but this does not offend me and I do not offend them.

    If you do an analysis of the back and forth that this thread has created, you will find that one side has resorted to 'you are stupid/ delusional' far more than the other side has. Every belief system has its share of hotheads, but I think the anger here has more to do with preconceived notions and stereotyping than with anger over certainty. It may also have to do with resentment regarding certainty, but that's pure speculation on my part.

    There was a scene from 48 hours I think where Eddie Murphy walks into a bar full of rednecks and says 'I'm your worst nightmare, a brotha (edit) with a badge.' Well, being an intelligent and articulate Christian, I'm a 'nightmare' of anyone who has smugly and shallowly written off the deeper questions of life and considers that spiritual can of worms a threat to their carefully crafted stability. Bullies tend to have self esteem issues regardless of the venue.

    I also agree with you regarding the concept of different languages. Two people have to have agreed upon common ground- a circle of agreed upon ideas and principles if you will- if they are to debate anything. It is necessary for certain things to be accepted if either side is to consider the views of the other. What is the common ground between the christian and the atheist? Both have eyes, ears and minds. Both live in the same world. So it is possible to discuss tangibles and ideas relative to the world they live in. When I have an observation relative to science, or to logic, or morality, or integration- all concepts readily available to the atheist- I will make that point. If there is a point based on information/evidence that is 'inaccessible,' I will clarify that also and not make an argument that is 'out of bounds'. If something is out of bounds and I can't change it, then that's just how I'll call it. People can agree to disagree without ripping each other to pieces.

    Civility is always a virtue except in time of war or self defense, and it is true that sometimes all you can do is come to the edge of your territory and agree that's as far as it goes. In fact, it's my impression that was how the thread was going to wind up, with folks agreeing to disagree but also understanding how other folks could come to different conclusions without necessarily being 'stupid' or 'irrational' or what have you.

    I will add, though, that I think the idea of an impenetrable language barrier can be taken too far. Communication is a two way street. If one side is not willing to stretch or consider new ideas or potential new concepts, then it is not the fault of the language, it is the lack of desire in one of the parties to participate. If people don't want to listen, that is their problem, but it doesn't make the truth any less real.

    Flexibility and steadfastness are both key virtues that draw strength from one another. By studying and listening and being as open as I can, I have been able to build a foundation of understanding that is rock solid. This allows for confidence on my part to accept any and all ideas with equal willingness (flexibility), but also creates a steadfastness in the full sense of looking at all the angles because I have a full and integrated structure to evaluate new pieces of information, rather than just shooting from the hip. Experience and knowledge builds on itself.

    To take this out of the emotionally charged arena of spiritual things, consider the argument between traders and random walkers. Traders see patterns, random walkers say they are illusion and do not exist. Traders say there is clear evidence that short term trading is possible, random walkers say there is not. If you show a random walker a successful daytrader's statements highlighting years of positive returns, he will bluster and mutter something about sampling error or lucky coin syndrome and wave it away.

    Does this mean that the debate is useless or impossible? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there is good reason to debate with a random walker- perhaps you want to save him from index fund losses. Perhaps he is a friend who would be a good trader. Whatever. The point is that just because arguments stir up contention does not mean they should be avoided at all costs. And the messenger certainly shouldn't be shot just because he offends others.

    To choose nothing is to choose oblivion, because if you are wrong or if you are right you get the same thing- oblivion. If there is nothing to talk about, there is nothing to say.

    Last but not least, who cares what this board is for? Who cares what anything is for? If people want to talk about basketball shoes or cheesecake recipes, what's wrong with that? The best hope for an atheist is to adapt the idea that life is only what you make of it, if that's the case then it's the same thing with threads and message boards.

    My beliefs are ultimately built on a bedrock of pure faith but so are everyone else's (NO exceptions here, nobody talk to me about doorknobs please, take a philosophy class on presuppositions first....). I have gone to great lengths to integrate my faith with reality and reason and because I love God I feel compelled to defend Him. I am willing and prepared to go toe to toe with Stephen Hawking and the dean of Philosophy from Ivy League U if need be. I don't consider those who disagree with me 'dumb', nor do I feel the need to insult those who disagree with me or question their brainpower. But nor do I feel the requirement to keep my mouth shut out of some secular sense of propriety. When we get down to it, consistency is what it's all about, and there is none without God. That's the way it is, don't like it, what am I supposed to do?

    Last but not least I would be happy for this thread to end!!! It's only because peeps keep stepping back in with the same tired mudballs that it goes on. If I make ya mad, fire up a doobie and listen to some Bob Marley. No darkhorse no cry. I just speak out on what I know for certain to be true. If you don't have certainty, seek it out, the search is a good thing. I'm only in your face if you're reading my posts....

    p.s. rs7 i didn't know me n' Kymar was in a contest. feel free to declare him the winner. and where my burger king hat dawg?
    #746     Jul 15, 2002
  7. rs7


    Hey My Friend:
    A) And I am trying to give up sex!

    B) You know, I find it funny that I get the same feeling about the "hypocrisy" thread....just there some of the players reverse rolls. I hope I have not been guilty in either. Or even particularly partisan.

    C) NO WAY!!!!

    D) I am working on it. The best things in life are worth the wait!!
    #747     Jul 15, 2002

  8. does your wife know about this? :eek:
    #748     Jul 15, 2002
  9. rs7


    OK...change that....I am trying to give up breathing:)
    (or exaggerating):) :)
    #749     Jul 15, 2002

  10. but if the breathing goes doesn't the sex go too? :confused:

    unless...okaaay, change of subject, how about that 400 point rally today?
    #750     Jul 15, 2002
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