<i>beyond good and evil......... having read this thread with much interest, it seems to me that the conclusion is really something else. something beyond the age old debate concerning the existence of god; and if god exists does he concern himself with the affairs of men ? having given MUCH thought to this issue, it appears that some people are simply wired to believe in a higher power, and some people are not. there is equal brain power and intellect on both sides of the debate, so why do some people believe and some do not ?? apparently there is something deep inside the innerworkings of the mind that "predestines" belief or non belief. even the bible states something like this when it says, and i will take liberty when qouting since i am not sure of the exact qoute, " i (god) am foolishness for those who are not touched by the spirit". or something like that. therefore, in my opinion, the debate itself is meaningless since belief and non belief are internalized by the person and no amount of debate or winning of an argument can change one's mind if they are not wired to believe or vice versa. just my thoughts, thanks for some fascinating reading. best, surf</i> When I was 18, and of scientific mind alone, I met a man who told me that God exists. I said, prove it to me. He said fine. Come to my house and I will prove it to you. I arrived at his house and I said where is the proof. He brought out a Bible and said, "here is the proof." Of course, being young, full of it, and knowing everything I got angry and said "I said proof. That is not proof." Calmly he replied, "yes, it is proof." I got more and more upset with him. "That is not proof, that is just <i>your</i> opinion and <i>your</i> belief system, not scientific, objective proof." He remained calm and replied, "it is proof." At my wits end, "I yelled at him, <b>then prove it to me!</b>" Once again, completely serene with his response he said, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the proof of God is in the believing. I cannot prove it to you---I am not God, but God can prove it to you if you believe wholeheartedly in him." I stormed out. What an idiot I said to myself. Well, many years later, and many different experiences and changes of my belief systems, I discovered what he said to be true for me, and it is my belief that it can be true for everyone. It is possible to change beliefs, if one chooses to do so. If someone understands the nature of the human mind and the way in which beliefs are formed and sustained, change is possible if not inevitable. No one is born with their beliefs, they are presented to us as children, but as adults we have the power to choose what to believe. I find it silly that in the context of discussing the concept of the creator of the universe, a being who is omnipresent and omnipotent, that we demand that such a creator must fit into our constructs of what proof is. Somewhere along the line, we have accepted that the scientific method and objective method of discovering reality is the correct and only method to find out what is real and everlasting. Those who sincerely practice faith, faith from the deepest and most sincere corner of their hearts, have come to a different set of beliefs and experiences that while not meeting the criteria of those who require <i>objective</i> evidence as a reason to change their belief systems, their faith has produced experiences of a relationship with God that they are willing to live and die for. Yes, I cannot prove the existence of God to you, but He can prove it if you really want him to. Have you ever really asked Him to do so, from the bottom of your heart? 777
i will no longer reply to obvious nonsense. nor will i respond to irrational people who do not (and never will) understand what it is to construct an actual valid argument. you are irrational. if that's what you aspire to that's your business, but you are wasting my time. :-/
darkhorse, Territories have been drawn on this as you say, so please desist from stepping outside yours. If you don't care if Faster even exists why respond to his posts.You feel the need to defend your territory? Why? I don't believe in your God but I do care that another living being should exist. I find that remark gratuitously offensive. What's more, I'm glad I don't have a belief in a god which could make me say such a thing. Listen to yourself for a moment, who is doing the insulting ?? If Faster (once again, NO I am not Faster) is assertive, agressive, humerous and affronting , then he is at worst, only expressive enough to address your responses and those of others with the same belief as yours. Your arguments throughout this thread and those who expressed the same are based on your own personal God. Fine Your statements are always absolutist. Not Fine. Your style is to attach the weaknesses in your argument onto others you choose to insult. In my reading of these posts you manifest yourself as a paradox, intolerant to those who question you, your response is an attempt to bully whilst at the same time happilly draw the line on a friendly note. You accuse others of pompousness and yet display the most arrogant pomposity in the assertion that you have the special answer. You attempt to belittle those who display any wit or intelligence to question your beliefs. You are contradictory and selective in your rebuttal. I find myself wanting to question, probe and inquire. It's an inate feeling that mankind finds itself with. There is nothing wrong or evil or Godless in doing that very thing, even if it is to question the existence of God..... himself, sheself or itself. Some of your more reflective posts I find extremely coherent and deeply interesting but this display of extraordinary vanity and self importance is bereft of any goodwill to those who don't, won't or can't see your point. That's not good enough. Whether you like it or not, or even if you can't understand it ....you are the one with the problem. It's the same problem we all have..... and you my friend are no more the messenger than any of us are.
that's why they are called "believers". another term is "sheep". you see sheep don't reason they just follow the rear-end of the next "believer. i guess they like it there ..hahaha. they don't require reason for their belief, hope will work just fine. they are either brainwashed as children (sad) or were not born with the mental skill set to produce rational thought (bad hard wiring) or they need something to fill their dull empty pointless lives like the convict that finds god in the corner of his jail cell. (isn't it amazing how often god pops up when you are at your lowest point and you need some thing to comfort you, anything, and "poof" there he is) their "god system" is a little too pat and convenient. if a tree falls it is god's will. if a tree stands it is god's will. if you die it is god's will. if you survive it is god's will. if a boxer wins his bout it is god's will. if his opponent wins it is god's will. see how pointless and ridiculous this all becomes? if the explanation of every event and circumstance is the same then the exercise is futile. it explains NOTHING. just say oh well it's god's will. LOL. what a joke. (i'd laugh some more if this wasn't so pathetic) i mean these are the people that want to continue to run this planet, and you see where that is leading us. But all is not lost. the "believers" will move on to their just rewards and we humanists are becoming more numerous by the day. in fact there are more rational nonbelievers in the world than ever before. the sheep are losing their numbers andtheir flock is thinning. it is only a matter of time......
i like the way you use "find". speaks volumes about your mindset. you were "searching", and why, because you were looking for something you NEEDED. you had a void you needed to fill. that's why we search in the first place. and that's precisely when many get sucked in!