OK, but don't all good golfers, pilots, etc. do things by the book? (especially pilots)? But I guess my question is more about how to interpret what you listen to and your screwups. I mean if sa y I was trading with 2 good traders that were completely different, how would I know which one to follow? Or which one would be best for me to emulate? There must be some advantage to trading with knowlegable guys. I have been trading alone from home (not too successfully) and may go work with a firm. I know I will be with other treaders. I was thinking this would help me. Do you think it will only confuse me more? That it is a bad move? I know it will be a little more expensive, but I have been led to believe it was worth the difference. wha t do you think? Thanks, Marc
marty schwartz said it well in calling himself a synthesizer. he would take ideas and observations from other traders he respected, put things together in a way that made sense to him and fit his personality, and ended up developing his own unique style through this process. find your own way but listen to others in the meantime so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. develop a general thesis, get it down on paper, and then hone it and craft it until you have a tailor made method that fits your personal strengths and weaknesses and your overall mental approach. p.s. i would hate being in an office with other traders, i'm much better off alone. but i'm sure many guys feel the exact opposite. which way to go is really a personality question.
To make it easier on yourself, simply learn the basics (not somebody's "system" or "method" ),...most likely their system worked once a long time ago, and now they write books or something. Basics from the trading floor...how markets really work (most don't have a clue), which markets can be beat consistently, how orders are executed, all this before worrying about individual stocks or picking entry points. Heck, I have people that I could place in front of a computer, with black tape covering the stock symbol, and they would still make money...they know how to tape read...simple as that. Sure it takes a while to learn the basics, and even longer to feel comfortable with them...but it is easier to do it right (and cheaper) than to try to emulate someone elses tired old strategy that may or may not work. We live in the Here and Now, and it is easy for my to see who is doing well....we simply stay ahead of the others. Simplicity!! Don
Darkhorse stated it very well, as usual.. There is nothing gained by not taking the risks individually and seeing how you react given any number of outcomes to one trade or a series of trades...It takes a long time to find your own "footprint" in the markets because you really do not who you want to be or who you are as a trader... I think the analogy to golf is a very good one, and one that I am familiar with because I spent so many years practicing, competing at it, etc...I also came across so many golfers who seemed to always flip thru Golf Digest and try and figure out the "perfect swing"...You see the search for perfection is not just something indigenous to trading, it is something all novices seek out...They think they can watch a pro tournament and if they can just emulate that guys movement they can somehow become just as proficient...But then people forget about Paul Azinger, Hubert Green, Lee Trevino, Arnold Palmer...All guys with distinctly different swings, swings that are "wrong" according to all the "experts", but swings that nonetheless have produced enormous success... I think that one of the most dangerous times a trader has is in the "in between" stages...Once the trading bug bites you, you are constantly in search of something that is perfect...And you are very impressionable...There are threads on this forum that have some of the more basic concepts and you can just see people fawning over these ideas, so enamored with the concepts, that they think they have found nirvana...And once they have that first losing trade or that second losing trade, they will scrap those ideas and go searching again...That is what is most dangerous... If I were to start all over again from scratch and erase my mind, I would probably want someone to say to me...For one month you will trade this specific time frame and you will trade this specific pattern and you will not diverge from this specific set-up even once...Because over that month I would see the balance of winners to losers and I would not be swayed by a very small sample of trades...I would develop a consistency and an eye for that specific situation and over time I would become an expert on one specific time frame, one specific scenario and I would no longer be "searching" for something new... Its good to seek out others assistance...Its especially good to find people who really know what they are doing and understand exactly how the market works as a whole...The basics of price action, the phases of trending, congestion, volatility, etc, etc...But without a basic understanding of price action, it is very difficult to make any progress forward..Kind of like the golf swing..You need to learn the proper grip, allignment, weight transfer, etc ,etc before you can attempt to work the ball...It all begins with the fundamentals and then grows from there...
I have been a member here about 6 mos and this is my first response. Exellent post! I have been demo trading the last 5 weeks due to losses eg over trading and have calmed down and re-focused considerably. I not only print my trades eod, I print the accompanying charts and the Naz chart for the day(1 min) and write an explanation next to each trade as to why enter, exit. Keeping these records and thinking I may show them someday and have to defend them is similar to your thought on pretending to trade someone elses $, it works. My P&L has improved much and I'm the three C's now; calm, cool & collected. I return to the real deal later this week and hope to trade as I have been in demo, no chasing, no trading out of boredom, I'll cuff my hands to the chair if necessary( oops the lady's getting excited hehe). Thanks again rs7 and others.
This is exactly right. This is also why I tried in this thread to avoid specifics and stay with the more general concepts of trading. If I did know some specific strategy that worked in all markets...AND I DO NOT!!!!....I don't know if I would have discussed it here because my comments and observations were intended for those traders that I felt could benefit from my experience (which included lots and lots of mistakes and heartache). Traders that can benefit from knowing what I think I can convey. Hopefully saving them just a little time in their journey to success. But again, there are no significant shortcuts. Specific successful strategies, (other than momentum, relative strength, the basics) tend to be overly complex. Try and make sense out of our friend SuperEgo's "lessons" for example. Even if they were valid, they could only be applied on top of a foundation of the basics, which everyone must understand. At that point, traders find their own ways. Hence the "personal" styles that evolve for each person. And make no mistake...style and strategy are different. It seems that this is getting repetitive, which is why I have ignored this thread for a while....I thought it was pretty much finished. But the questions like those of MarcD are so common. I guess it is understandable. Why do guys sit next to each other and trade differently? Why do I love my wife and you love yours? There is a personal aspect to trading that is unexplainable. But I can see how for a new trader there would seem to have to be answers. If there were, I would certainly give them. If I knew, like SE knows, why Don is Louise Jefferson (for a rediculous but explicit example), I would say. But I don't know what the answer is to the reasion for the difference in trading styles (other than personality/risk tolerance, the common sense answers). Good trading to all, RS7
thank you guys, I guess I sort of get the idea. Maybe I should continue to trade from home as I am. But I keep thinking that exposure to better traders will help. Maybe I should re think the whole subject!
posted by me "My other career was an active, on-the-go type activity. To just sit and do nothing all morning is tough. It doesn't feel right.. like I'm wasting time, and sooo boring." posted by rs7 "But what he (and so many others) did not understand that often the "hard work" in trading is going through what you call the "boring" times. Being disciplined is hard work. Not trading is hard work. Watching the "action" and not participating is hard work. Inaction does not equate to doing nothing though it may appear that way. It is the DECISION to "do nothing" that makes that very "inaction" work. Our job is about making decisions, not about making trades. Anyone can hit the buy or sell button. Deciding when to do it is something else. It is what seperates work from play. Trading from amusement. " ************************************************ Thanks for the advice. I guess I have to get used to the idea of work as just sitting in a comfy chair. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Patience, n. A minor form of dispair, disguised as a virtue." -Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911