allright, I will clarify myself so that you won't get offended, because you don't need to be, unless you are a fundamentalist, which I don't think you are. I consider islamic fundamentalists to be a seperate category from the majority of muslims. I do the same thing when it comes to christians and jews, each group has its crazy people who won't listen to reason. The problem is that when people are honest and talk about how the islamic fundamentalists are the enemies of america, israel, jews, and christians, they are just stating the obvious. The islamic fundamentalists will tell anybody who will listen how evil america and israel are and how the christians and jews are "infidels" who should not be tolerated. Its just a harsh truth that politicians are afraid to bring up for fear of being branded a bigot. Also, I will say that there are no arab democracies in the middle east, never have been any arab democracies in the middle east, and there is no democratic movement in the middle east. If you know something different, then post it, because it isn't in the news media or any books that i have read, and I haven't heard about it from any middle eastern people that I know.
Now you are talking. It is key to respect each other whatever our race, religion, colourâ¦.. Now I can assure you that there are movements that want democracy and that any person in planet earth whatever its religion colour wants that.. But as the great Nelson Mandela said there is no easy way to freedom. And this is also the case in China, Africa and in southern Americaâ¦. Freedom fighters are doing their best and I think that this should improve⦠God bless humanity and peace
Neither am I an expert, and I am *NOT* agreeing or disagreeing here, but in the interest of perspective, consider: 1) The US is ostensibly "democratic," yet its government crushes its people under a tax code it knows the average citizen does not understand, continually passes laws giving itself more power at the expense of the people, censors media broadcasts, and imprisons its citizens for completely victimless crimes. 2) There is at least substantial sentiment that the power elite of the US is corrupt. I won't try to present a legal case, but I'm sure there are enough political scandals to fill a long list, starting with hillary clinton and marc rich and going back to Carnegie and the robber barons. As for being above the law, consider the case of a sitting US president, the preeminent officer charged with enforcing the law of the US, lying under oath in a judicial proceeding, then repeating the lie on national tv to the constituency -- after which, the Senators empaneled as a "jury," after much babbling and grandstanding, voted for acquittal almost precisely along party lines without even reviewing the evidence. The kind of selective application of the law that would warm any Shah's heart... 3) A quote from a US official that might lead one to assume a lack of respect for the rest of the world, given that no other country has supported its recent intitiatives, and apparently none agree with Mr. Powell about "what is right" in this case: "We believe in consultation, but we also believe in leading. We believe in multilateralism, but we also believe in sticking up for what we believe is right, and not sacrificing it [on] the altar of multilateralism, for the sake of multilateralism," Powell said. -- Colin Powell http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/02/06022002090755.asp **AGAIN: I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing here - simply trying to point out the importance perspective and national loyalty have in forming judgments regarding these types of subjects.
Tradefut2000, Where did I ever imply anything contrary to the "respect each other" sentiment? Were the Israelis at fault? "on 16 September 1982, Israel's Phalangist militia allies started their three-day orgy of rape and knifing and murder in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila that cost 1,800 lives." Have you ever spoken to an Israeli? The vast majority feel sadness and remorse for these incidents (which were carried out by their "allies", not their own soldiers). I KNOW FOR A FACT that Israelis regret a lot of what happened. I KNOW FOR A FACT that even today there are a great many (probably the majority) of Israelis that know that their policies and actions are too harsh. But they put up with this because their existence is in the balance. Now, tell me about how many Palestinians regret the suicide bombings of innocent children in pizza joints and discos and shopping plazas. They CELEBRATE death to Israeli civilians (and American civilians when they can). Israeli citizens DO NOT celebrate the unfortunate casualties of the conflict. They apologize...an unknown concept to the "Palestinians." When the attacks of last 9/11 occurred, the "Palestinians" (if that is really even a proper name for these people) celebrated in the streets of the West Bank and Gaza. The women handed out candies as is their custom of celebration. It seems to me that the Israelis only want peace. The Arabs only want Isreal gone from the face of the earth. The Israelis give their Arab citizens the right to vote (the only place in the Middle East where an Arab woman can vote at all). The Arabs want only to annihilate Israel. The Israeli people object openly to the harsh policies of their government. The Arab people are not permitted this freedom. The Israeli people argue and debate their policies. They change their leadership. They just search for a way to attain peace. The "Palestinians" have been led by the same lying deceitful dishonest bloodthirsty Arafat for how many decades? Was Arafat offered a country? Yes! Did he accept the Camp David Accords? No. Why? Because it did not include the main goal. To eliminate Israel. What about this gives Arafat legitimacy? What gives the Palestinians the right to ALL the land? What gives a government (Palestinian Authority) that endorses the killing of innocent civilians any legitimacy? All this stuff has nothing to do with Arabs, with Islam or with refugees. This is about one specific "cause" that has been perverted and used as an excuse to wage war on the civilized world. What, in reality, is Saddam's concern for the "Palestinians"? Or for that matter, what is the concern of the whole Arab world for the "Palestinians"? The refugees that left in 1948 were never accepted as other than second class refugees in any of the Arab countries. They were kept in camps and not allowed to assimilate into the societies of the countries they entered. They were granted Jordan as a homeland. What happened there? Tradefut2000. I have no beef with Islam. I have no beef with the Arab people. But their leadership is a bunch of thugs, granting zero freedom, zero civil rights, zero tolerance and demonstrating zero guts. They have oil (money) and they have power. They do not use it for the good of the people. Only themselves. Oh, and if there is an exception, like Sadat, down he goes. There is good and there is evil in this world. Neither the West or the Arabs or Israel have a monopoly on any of this. As for South America....you talk about the "freedom fighters". Lots of freedom in Cuba. Castro was a "freedom fighter". Che was a freedom fighter. Peron was a freedom fighter. And on and on. They fought for the "freedom" to seize power. Not for the freedom of the people. Oh, Noriega, can't forget him. And the Sandinistas. So is America all good? Nothing is perfect. But we have freedom of speech and religion and of the press. We can make fun of our leaders without fear of reprisal. We can say anything we want. You think Europe is more democratic than the US? You cite France? The one country I would never go back to in Europe. (I have been in them all). I never would have believed how intolerant the French were. They did not like my accent, so they ignored me. I asked for "white ice cream" because I forgot the word for vanilla (which is basically "vanilla" with an "e" at the end). I was ignored and ridiculed for that. What a fun bunch of friendly folks. And I lived there for a month. It was a long month. Thankfully I only slept in France. I worked and spent my time in Monaco. It was pleasant for the most part, especially if you don't mind always being under surveillance. Even in the parks, on the beaches, in the crosswalks on the sidewalks, everywhere.
You know what amazes me? How is it that all of the world's largest religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) somehow, even through the earth has millions of square miles of land, find the exact same spot to claim their most holy of landmarks?
aphie..it's really not amazing at all only someone with no idea about the history of religion would make such a comment...that's not meant to be a knock on you...it's just simple fact and Judaism is nowhere near being one of the "largest" religions in the world...no fuckin way
daniel_m, By any chance, were you in the Navy? If you aren't busy ripping me apart, you are pumping me up. I feel like I'm at boot-camp. And yes, I do have a knowledge of history -- I'm not a history major, but I did manage to stay awake for most of Western Civ I, II in college.
The Palestinian people have been shit on a lot. So have the Isrealis and now Americans. What else can you say? There's no doubt that American, Palestinian, and Isreali governments have made mistakes and acted against their people's best interests. If you believe any one of these is without some kind of role in this whole mess...it's the same thinking that propagates the whole mess forward.
I am an Arab a Muslim and I always lived in peace with my Jewish neighbours. I donât hate Jews and I donât want their extermination. But I am certainly against the suffering of innocent Palestinian civilians and Israelis civilians. History proved that Jews always lived in peace in Muslim countries⦠they were exterminated in europe not in muslim countries. So saying that they are in danger in a part of the world where they always were respected and protected is by itself wrong. So please open your mind and stop being brainwashed. Stop bullshitting and say that the Arabs hate Jews and want Israel to be eliminated ⦠this is in your dreams and this is pure propaganda. But like the whole planet except the US, I certainly donât believe that Yasser Arafat is the cause.. this is what Israel or the US try to explain to the whole planet ⦠that the suicide bombers are guided by Arafat⦠that is wrongâ¦. A suicide bomber is somebody that is going to kill himself.. So either he is crazy or he is despaired and wants revenge.. I think the latter is near the reality. This guy has nothing to lose and cannot be controlled by anybody else. This is even what even Mrs Blair, the wife of the British prime minister said. I think that anybody be it jew, black, Indian American would want revenge if his parents were killed or if the injustice is too high. It has nothing to do with being arab muslim or that bullshit it has to do with humiliation and revenge. and as long as this is not understood there will continue to be blood. But there is only one evidence : Sharon is ordering all the killings of innocent Palestinian civilians and the destruction of their homes⦠So when you say to me that Israelis want peace, my answer is you are not objective. And when you say that Arafat is against peace, I think that this guy is not perfect but objectively I cannot even compare it to the Butcher Sharon that is violating all the international laws⦠Even if you take simple numbers, there are many more Palestinian dead than Israelis.. at least 3 times more, and it is done in violation of international law.. Arafat is not the one that committed the suicide bombings and neither ordered them but we know for sure who is ordering the killings of thousands of Palestinians and the mass destruction of the houses of âINNOCENT CIVILIANSâ once again in violation of international law⦠Remember, Arafat holds the Nobel prize whereas Sharon holds the murder of thousands of civilians in gaza and sabra and shatila price.