Stops

Discussion in 'Index Futures' started by tortoise, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. FredBloggs

    FredBloggs Guest

    good for you.

    you are thinking for your self and doing your own work and formulating your own ideas rather than believing all the stuff out there that the 80-90% take as gospel in their fruitless mission to get rich quick with no work.

    id go for it. paper trade it first until you are happy you have reached a proper conclusion.
     
    #21     Feb 25, 2006
  2. tortoise

    tortoise


    Wise words, borne of experience no doubt. I have nothing but respect for them.

    My problem with, say, a two-point stop, or a six-tick stop, or stop based on this, or the other, is that (as I see it anyway) a stop placed with the expectation that it will "permit the trade to work" is placed with the predictive assumption that markets will permit the trade to work under the ground rules of the stop. Now I just reread this last sentance and I'm thinking "What the hell am I talking about?" I mean, one could say, "Ok, so you're not saying markets are predictable, so then on what basis are you placing a trade at all?" But here's the thing...

    Markets exist to facilitate trade and to frustrate traders, right? Consequently, one seeks to differentiate him or herself from the majority (i.e., risktaker's 95%), correct?

    Ok, well, here's how I get from a-to-b: Virtually all traders use hard stops. Very few traders employ my entry/exit methodology -- certainly not exactly as I do, since it is my own, and is, therefore, unique to me and my own peculiar way of thinking as is my thumbprint and my eyeglass prescription. My entry/exit methodology is consistently profitable, my stops are not. Why would I continue to use that which is commonplace and unprofitable, and which appears to be a detriment to the performance of what is unique and profitable?

    Please understand, this is not meant to be argumentative. I'm not entirely sold on this logic myself. It's just something that's come to me -- like all my very best, and very worst, ideas.

    Now, as to the "dear in the headlights" syndrome. I hear you, and I respect that observation as well. Fortunately, icewater runs through my veins. :D
     
    #22     Feb 25, 2006
  3. FredBloggs

    FredBloggs Guest

    with all due respect, i think this shows a complete lack of understanding about the very basics of trading.

    firstly, despite what you may have read, futures are NOT a zero sum game.

    secondly, reasons for losing are rarely due to trading some overcrowded bird house/'wrong instrument' (what ever that may mean). in fact, they can never be because of this.

    the reasons are inward, not outward.

    peace.

    :)
     
    #23     Feb 25, 2006
  4. "My entry/exit methodology is consistently profitable, my stops are not."


    what the hell kind of statement is that.....lol....i think your ideas on not doing the norm or what everyone else is doing is great and that is how the rich get rish.....but saying your stops are not profitable so i shouldnt use them is kind of silly dont ya think....it wasnt your stop that was not profitable...it was the trade you entered before you needed that stop that was unprofitable.....successful traders of anything know....keep your losses tight and let your winners run...........and nowwhere does let your losers run fit into any form of profitable equation...and by pulling your stops or convincing yourself your stops are non-profitable is account suicide.
     
    #24     Feb 25, 2006
  5. tortoise

    tortoise


    madmummy, sir (ma'am?) -- You are the voice inside my head!

    The only reason I would consider this path is because I am under the impression (illusion? delusion?) that I will not be holding a position that has moved nine points against me, as, by that time, I will have received a clear entry signal in the opposite direction, which would tell me to close the trade and -- assuming I'm not too disgusted with myself and, therefore, uncertain whether emotions were getting the better of me, in which case I'd put the trading mouse away -- take the opposite position.

    Also, a game I play that helps me keep perspective. I view all my trades as one giant position that I scale in and out of. Even though I'm flat by the end of the day, it's all part of one grand continuum. Consequently, I do not get overly (well, overly overly) wrapped up with any one trade.

    That's what I'm telling myself, anyway. Ok, then, see you in the poorhouse! :D :D :confused:
     
    #25     Feb 25, 2006
  6. tortoise

    tortoise

    You're right, the statement is not just sillly, it's asinine. Please understand that when I wrote it I had a two-year-old on my lap.

    Still...
     
    #26     Feb 25, 2006
  7. I tell u only that I am sure NOBODY here with little experience is trading futs for a living and maybe no more than 2 or 5 experience traders on this board are doing that: if someone claims he can live off futs trading gains should be able to back it; extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Newbs that start out shouldn't be even thinking about making a living but should only aim at surviving the first 1-2 yrs of onslaught and stocks are the correct vehicle to learn without blowing up every 2-3months. The leverage therefore shouldn't be a problem at all and once an edge is found it is only a question of compounding.

    Also doubt your survival stats are correct.
     
    #27     Feb 25, 2006
  8. tortoise

    tortoise

    Bitstream -- I'm a big fan of your posts: I've lurked on ET for a long time, and have benefited from the wisdom you and others have shared with the rest of us. So, thank you for that. Really.

    But I'm puzzled by the bitterness I perceive, not only in this message, but in risktaker's first responses to my query -- and of course, the vitriol spiked throughout ET. Earlier in this thread, someone took me to task -- legitimately -- for my snotty response to risktaker's snottiness, but the subtext of my response does, I think, bear some consideration in the context of trading -- of how we assess the evidence, and the actions we take as a result.

    And so, I rephrase my response to risktaker -- and, please understand, I mean this without animus, or even annoyance. Just puzzlement.

    You say futures are the worst instrument to trade. I disagree, although that's a conversation worth having. You say I have a hard time taking advice from others. On what basis do you make this statement? You suggest that I don't listen well. Again, any corroborating evidence here? Finally, although you don't directly accuse me of being "undercapitalized," you do suggest (by your use of the pronoun "u") that I have gone, or am about to go, "boom" not once, but a number of times.

    Now, you'll just need to take my word on this: None of these apparent assumptions on your part have any basis in fact.

    Here's my existential question: How many traders out there jump to these sorts of unfounded conclusions about the markets? Is this the reason why there are so many losers?
     
    #28     Feb 25, 2006
  9. volente_00

    volente_00




    All a STOP does is tell you when you were WRONG with zero emotional bias. The market is always right. By not using any stop at all you are basically admitting that you can not handle the feeling of being wrong. This tells me you need to work on the emotional aspect of trading before tinkering with other factors. I suggest you read this book.

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0132157578&itm=1




    As far as doing it, try it and see how it works for you. But please at least enter some kind such as 10 ticks away or so, because although I was not trading ES at the time, I have heard stories of those who were when it jumped 30+ points in under a minute when the surprise rate hikes went on.




    "Virtually all traders use hard stops. Very few traders employ my entry/exit methodology -- certainly not exactly as I do, since it is my own, and is, therefore, unique to me and my own peculiar way of thinking as is my thumbprint and my eyeglass prescription. "



    Could it be that those who do not use hard stops are out of capital to trade ?


    :)
     
    #29     Feb 25, 2006
  10. volente_00

    volente_00





    Tortoise u never mentioned how much of a stop you are using ?


    Also it could be that you are just making poor entries.
     
    #30     Feb 25, 2006