this case is good for retail we jsut need to take advantage of it and start placing and cancelling mroe orders. you watch before too long it will cost money to cancel and the rates will be super low for members or direct access.. like .12 cents a side like they pay now and will be like 1.18 a side like what we pay now.. so then we will be really screwed they can cancel on us at a 10 to 1 ratio.. and we will be forced to stay in .. lol.. could happen .
If you ask me, spoofing is 100% utilized day in and day out by everyone out there and the SEC are blind, dumb, or paid off. Lets look at several examples that to me show how crazy it is out there. If someone has a good explanation for some of this activity, I'm all ears. All examples are taken from the NQ from just yesterday and these are 1 second bars. I realize that the spoofing that many people talk about might happen on the millisecond time frame, which the human eye might not even see, but there are lots of example on a longer time frame as well. In this example we see a heavy bid at 6660, and as price approaches, it pulls. If you're trying to get filled at this level, why pull just as price comes down into it? Next example. Red arrow shows the bid only getting heavy once price takes off. Why on earth put a bid in there once price has already taken off? Ok, you say you want to get filled at that level, fine, why not then wait, cause when price gets to the blue arrow, you can get in at that level, but of course the heavy bid is gone. Who knows, maybe they got filled higher, if they really wanted to, but it makes no sense for who ever put that bid there after price has taken off, except to fuck with other algos. Look at also the green arrow now. Bid appears when price is still many levels above it. Then, just as price gets down to this level, it pulls. It literally stops one tick shy, and then the bid is instantly cancelled. Same stuff happens in the ES. Red arrow, you see a heavy ask appear just as price drops lower. Some of it trades, and price goes down a couple of ticks, but the order is quickly pulled. Did this seller really want to sell or where they just trying to push price down? They had the option to sell more at that price in only a few seconds, but the order was pulled. At the green arrow, same thing. Heavy bid appears, price shoots up in response, and quickly comes back down, but the order pulls. If the buyer wanted it, they could have gotten more. Maybe they did, without placing limit orders, who knows, but why does it pull if the order was legit? The point is that when you've been watching this stuff long enough, you see that the limit book doesn't really reflect what traders want to do. Isn't the most basic definition of spoofing placing order you don't intend to fill? I know that people trade for lots of different reasons, like hedging and stuff like this, but these reasons shouldn't change by the second. If your orders appear and disappear as price nears, you're clearly not looking to participate, but to fuck around. I feel really bad for that Nav guy who went to jail for doing exactly what is still happening today on a monumental scale. The SEC is only working for the people with the deepest pockets.
Remember that the SEC has no bearing on futures, that is the CFTC. Just a technical point of order there.
Worthy correction, but they are all scum. Its kind of sad that an organization meant to protect common people ends up actually protecting those at the very top the top most.
That’s a great market microstructure breakdown. I saw the same thing in the CBOT Bond Pit, same thing on DTB, same thing on Eurex, same thing on CME... and on and on. Seen it in the OTC Swaps market. Seen it in the INC/DEC Power Market. And it’s always the small minnows that fade size and get sucked in by the illusion. FWIW I’ve never put much stock in volume, either. Especially these days.
The thing is though it does sometimes work. I mean if fading size always screwed you, it would be easy to learn to do the opposite. But in the markets, literally nothing happens more than about 60% of the time. You can easily go back through your data and look at 50 cases of what happens around a thick level, and half the time it does make sense to front run it, but the other half of the time, the entire level trades and keeps going. Now I'm not saying there isn't an edge there, but its not as easy as it would appear. I really do wonder though why they let this happen. Why some of these big whales can flash hundreds of contracts and when price comes close, pull their order, and have this not be spoofing?
the key word is INTENT..you legally only intend to be smarter..not necessarily intend to trade. the market rewards those who are smartest. cancelling orders is not spoofing. your intent to cancel is just as legal as an intent to buy limit. how are they any different? its not philisophical its truth. and judge saw it that way
it also says any person not a computer .should read any person computer bot or machine analog digital or biological that intends to move the market advantageously by gaming the clob on the matching order engine. after 2 gross infractions trading charged 5 % surcharge for 2 weeks
If a whale puts a 2000 lot bid five below the currently trading bid - and is simultaneously working offers that get filled, yeah that’s spoofing. But to answer your question about why he pulls his bid before the market gets there - he knows he’ll get filled and he’s surely already quite long I’d guess. Big orders AT the market get filled. Hundreds of contract orders are quite common in the ES. I’ve met at least a dozen day traders over the years who’d take a thousand lot in ES. I worked with David Ellis for three years and he’d take a hell of a lot more than that. I honestly can’t explain the practical or even the gamesmanship utility in flashing something like a three hundred lot.