Sound like Christians to me.

rcanfiel · Oct 16, 2007

Quote from Cache Landing:

Here is a copy of the mormon "Articles of Faith", which we refer to as the fundamental beliefs of the church. Feel free to discuss how these contradict the bible.

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adamâs transgression.

That depends on how you look at it. Adam&Eve brought death onto the human race. IT is called Original Sin.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

WHAT? "It is by grace you are saved and not through works." The determination of whether people were true believers or not was known since before the foundation of the world

EPHESIANS 2:
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willâ 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentâto bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

WRONG. All true believers have authority from God without intervention from any person: 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Show me the scripture that says anything about "correct translation of the Bible."

ANd speaking of that, show me anything in the scripture that points to the Book of Mormon, which is a reprehensible document that violates and perverts the things of God. It is without need, and was written by a circus performer. It has misled millions away from the true calling of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal agathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Show the scripture that says the New Jerusalem will be in America. The scripture makes it perfectly clear than the heavens and earth will be swept away. There will be a new heaven and new earth. Try reading Revelation, and put down the peepstones.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of PaulâWe believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
More...

Turok · Oct 16, 2007

Cache:
>Obviously the nature of God is debateable.

rcan:
>It is not debatable.

The FACT that it IS DEBATED by millions of reasonable people means BY DEFINITION that it IS DEBATABLE.

You really should check your screws -- there something loose somewere.

JB

rcanfiel · Oct 16, 2007

Quote from Cache Landing:

The only differing point is that they claim God the Father and God the Son to be two distinct persons. As Harper's Bible Dictionary states, the idea of the trinity as stated by the creeds is not found in the New Testament. Christ repeatedly refers to His Father and himself as seperate beings. Paul spells it out plain as day. It seems obvious the more I study the history of the early Christian churches, that the idea of the trinity evolved from the mind of man, despite the fact the Christ himself taught the contrary. [/B]
More...

Well, we are assuming that you don't have problems with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as each being distinctly God. You are stating that you think they are only separate, and not one God. Let's see what the scripture says about this:

---The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" The Hebrew word is "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

---Mark12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

And of course: a couple dozen more passages that say there is only one God:

"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10

"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35

"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one !" Deuteronomy 6:4

"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22

"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32

"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60

"You are the God, You alone of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15

"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20

"You alone are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6

"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31

"You alone, Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"âI am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6

"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8

"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5

"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14

"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one." Zechariah 14:9

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24

"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8

"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10

"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" John 5:44

"I and the Father are one ." John 10:30

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God" John 17:3

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" John 17:22

"since indeed God is one" Romans 3:30

"to the only wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27

"there is no God but one" 1 Corinthians 8:4

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one." Galatians 3:20

"There is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God" 1 Timothy 1:17

"which He will bring about at the proper timeâHe who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5

"You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19

"For certain persons deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4

"the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25

OUCH. It seems God IS One...

Turok · Oct 16, 2007

rcan:
>Show me the scripture that says anything
>about "correct translation of the Bible."

OMG -- let's translate a book into a hundred different languages, but unless the book directly says something like "Oh, BTW -- make sure and translate me correctly", we are free to translate it anyway we please and then enforce it's meaning.

I think most reasonable people will *assume* that "correct translation" is a REQUIREMENT for maintaining the integrity of any document.

Do you have ANY idea how goofy your above position is? (rhetorical question).

JB

fhl · Oct 17, 2007

Cache Landing stated that Mormons consider traditional Christianity to be comprised of Christians. The problem with this, is that it waters down the term "Christian" to nothing. Because, you see, Mormons believe that only Mormons will spend eternity in the presence of God.

So, they believe that we (traditional Christians) are either:

1 not part of the body of Christ, or

2 we are part of the body of Christ, but part of His body will not be with Him in eternity. (in the presence of God)

Those are bizarre positions and when Mormons say that they are part of the "broad Christian community", one needs to understand what this entails.

Cache Landing also stated that the more he reads the bible, the more he thinks that the position of the trinity is man's idea. He doesn't see any proof that there is one God and that Jesus is part of that Godhead. Rcanfield's post above deals with that. But, I would just like to point out that Mormons believe that God was once just a man like we are, that He and some heavenly woman procreated Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and Lucifer (whom they believe is Jesus' brother), and that we men can someday be like God and have people worship and pray to us.

I find it odd that someone who believes these things would say that traditional Christianity is comprised of just the "ideas of men". Cache Landing apparently believes that these Mormon positions, which I have just stated, are backed up by scripture.

Turok · Oct 17, 2007

>Cache Landing stated that Mormons consider traditional >Christianity to be comprised of Christians.
>The problem with this, is that it waters down the term
>"Christian" to nothing. Because, you see, Mormons
>believe that only Mormons will spend eternity in the
>presence of God.

How is that different than the age old protestant/catholic debate?

Catholics have added to the bible (apocryphal books)
Catholics have placed a mediator between god and man (pope)
Catholics have authorized man to forgive sins
Catholics worship man made objects
Catholic believe in salvation by good words (council of Trent)
(I could go on and on)

If a christian believes that a catholic is going to heaven, they certainly don't take much of traditional christian scripture literally (as they claim).

JB

Turok · Oct 17, 2007

I'm going to post this again because when I did (earlier in the thread) there was not a single comment.

***********************************
Webster's online dictionary:
>Main Entry: 1ChrisÂ·tian
>Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek >christianos, from Christos
>1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
***********************************
Primary definition..."one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".

I find this interesting since most (if not all) in this discussion wouldn't hesitate for a moment to run to the dictionary if they were in a debate about the meaning of a word. They would defend this run to Webster's with gusto if someone tried to claim the Webster's was flat out wrong.

Why is it with the word "christian", everyone (or every group) wants to define the word individually and claim the others are wrong?

JB

fhl · Oct 17, 2007

Quote from Turok:

I'm going to post this again because when I did (earlier in the thread) there was not a single comment.

***********************************
Webster's online dictionary:
>Main Entry: 1ChrisÂ·tian
>Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek >christianos, from Christos
>1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
***********************************
Primary definition..."one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".

I find this interesting since most (if not all) in this discussion wouldn't hesitate for a moment to run to the dictionary if they were in a debate about the meaning of a word. They would defend this run to Webster's with gusto if someone tried to claim the Webster's was flat out wrong.

Why is it with the word "christian", everyone (or every group) wants to define the word individually and claim the others are wrong?

JB
More...

I wonder if you really want an answer or you are just trying to irritate.

Oh well, I'll give you an answer anyway.

Knowledge alone is not sufficient. One can get a verse or a "webster's definition", and prove anything. It's done all the time.

The necessary ingredient is understanding of the knowledge. It's why Jesus had to correct people throughout the gospels when they quoted scriptures, yet had it all wrong. We are admonished to study in order to "rightly divide the word of truth". Without understanding, it's all for naught.

I might add, it's rather easy to identify those who are quoting things about which they haven't a clue.

Hope this helps.

chuck.ells · Oct 17, 2007

Quote from Cache Landing:

Here is a copy of the mormon "Articles of Faith"
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

More...

Cache,
If you're still monitoring this thread, could you give me an answer to an honest question?

What is âtalking in tongues?â
When I hear that term, I automatically think of the movie âThe Exorcistâ.
Maybe this term means communicating in some long extinct language, or perhaps speaking in political mumjo jumbo? I really have no idea.

Not really looking for some long drawn out explanation, just a concise overview.

Cache Landing · Oct 17, 2007

My point runs very close to Turoks point. Some claim that mormons aren't Christian because they believe they are the only true church. In reality, most major Christian denominations believe they are the only true church, and they damn each other to hell for not joining their church.

Mormons aren't the only ones who believe that good works are necessary.

Mormons aren't the only ones who believe there will be modern prophets.

Mormons aren't the only ones who believe that some supposed Christians won't make it to live with Christ.

Mormons aren't the only ones who understand that the Bible isn't always translated perfectly.

Mormons aren't the only ones refute the idea of the trinity.

Mormons aren't the only ones who believe that baptism is essential.

I could go on. All these things are debated heavily throughout the world, yet mormons are the only ones considered non-Christian.