So I don't use stops and I think the math supports this.

Discussion in 'Options' started by wxytrader, Sep 13, 2023.

  1. I disagree. IMO both constructs don't have a risk:reward of 1:3.
    But why do you believe the risk is 4?

    Some weeks ago I was going to find the correct formula for this, but was held back or distracted by other (un)important stuff...
    Was going to calc it by using the probability-weighted payoff curve, but unfinished yet...
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2023
    #31     Sep 14, 2023
    wxytrader likes this.
  2. deaddog

    deaddog

    I don't see where I mentioned stops, only that you haven't spent the time to test your theory.
    But thanks for answering a question I didn't ask.
    Good luck with your trading.
     
    #32     Sep 14, 2023
  3. MarkBrown

    MarkBrown

    i "know" it's best not to use stops but you better have a backup plan and "know" it is statistically sound.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2023
    #33     Sep 14, 2023
  4. To the extent that the thing your trading is a martingale, that is, the fair value in the future is the value now, there is a theorem that says there is no optimal stopping strategy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_stopping_theorem

    But if you know the fair value in the future is away from the present value, then stops can improve pnl.
     
    #34     Sep 14, 2023
  5. ironchef

    ironchef

    Thank you for the link.

    I read it but don't quite understand. Question: is fair value the expected value?
     
    #35     Sep 14, 2023
  6. taowave

    taowave

    You guys are WAY overcomplicating this...Hes trading spreads with defined risks,looking at a 1:3 risk reward ratio....

    Im not saying stops wouldnt enhance his return,but there is nothing wrong with trading limited risk positions as a punt

    His real problem is hes too lazy too backtest,which doesnt bode well for his future
     
    #36     Sep 14, 2023
    longandshort likes this.
  7. T
    Technically I am back-testing because I have sized way down. Currently after some mis-management I am down 640 USD last week. Had I exited during the volatility spike, I would have been up 250 USD. Had I not tinkered with it by adding a credit spread in the other direction then I would only be down my max risk of $160 or whatever. Had I closed the credit spread 10 minutes after opening it I would have profited about $100 on it, instead I suffered a max loss. I am beginning to notice with credit spreads they will hit 12 deltas almost 100% of the time on the call and put side...so forget about iron condors being a viable strategy for anything other than cash settled options imo.

    So in summary I could have made a maximum of 350 USD, but instead I suffered a maximum loss of 640 USD.

    Had I done nothing like I planned I would have suffered only a $160 loss. I also don't close positions itm or otm to avoid fees. It usually works out cheaper to let them expire worthless. So again, doing NOTHING is the best strategy thus far. Ideally I will set up profit taking conditional orders based on the underlying price...that way I can really do NOTHING. As it is I am sitting there making decisions intraday which is the trading equivalent of watching the 3 stooges do a slapstick routine...

    Side note: So from the anlayzer tool and my spreadsheets, ITM spreads, with the same underlying price seem return increasing profits the closer they get to expiration?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2023
    #37     Sep 16, 2023
  8. taowave

    taowave

    Before you get too crazy with debot spead vs credit spread,are you familair with " box arbitrage"??



     
    #38     Sep 16, 2023
    longandshort likes this.
  9. I'll look into it. I don't think my broker allows boxing options strategies if thats the same.

    • The profit earned is really very low and minimal.
    • The strategy is only helpful for experienced investors and not retail investors, where a lot of knowledge is required to take such a call.
    • The margin required to apply this strategy requires a huge margin and maintenance of it which small traders will find it tough to maintain.
    This wouldn't work for me. I would prefer lose big to win big versus lose small to win small.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2023
    #39     Sep 16, 2023
  10. cesfx

    cesfx

    12 delta
     
    #40     Sep 16, 2023