Although many of us knock vendors, I do concede that a handful of vendors serve a useful role, especially in the learning curve stage... Certain vendors shine out as examples of excellent value for money... for example, I have a great respect for the following people's contributions to the trading community:- Alan Farley (hardrightedge.com) Tony Oz Vadym (Threei) ... realitytrader.com Linda Raschke Their books / websites / chatrooms seem to be a very valuable resource for traders starting out... BUT FOR EVERY GOOD VENDOR, THERE ARE 20 SNAKE OIL MERCHANTS... LET'S USE THIS THREAD TO EXPOSE SNAKE OIL VENDORS, SITES / BOOKS / CHATROOMS THAT ARE GARBAGE AND ARE OF LITTLE OR NO VALUE... LET'S RESTRICT THE SNAKE OIL LIST TO PEOPLE SUSPECTED OF USING ELITETRADER FORUMS FOR COVERT MARKETING MY RATIONALE IN STARTING THIS THREAD IS TO PROVIDE A CENTRALISED DEPOSITARY FOR THE EXPOSURE OF SNAKE OIL... ELITETRADER, FOR THE LAST FEW MONTHS, HAS BEEN UNDER AN INVASION FROM VENDORS, USING THE COVER OF ANONYMOUS NICKNAMES... IT IS TIME FOR US TO HIT BACK AND PUT THE SNAKE OIL IN ITS PLACE... IT IS TIME FOR US TO EXPOSE THE SNAKE OIL, SO THAT THEY STOP INFECTING ELITETRADER WITH COVERT ATTEMPTS AT MARKETING (IF THEY WANT TO MARKET STUFF, THEY SHOULD PAY BARON FOR AN ADVERTISEMENT)... THIS SHOULD HELP CLEANSE ELITETRADER, AND BRING IT BACK TO SOME SEMBLENCE OF A TRADING COMMUNITY... WHENEVER WE SEE SNAKE OIL ON ELITETRADER, WE SHOULD ADD IT TO THIS THREAD, SO THAT THIS THREAD IS REACTIVATED TO THE TOP OF THE LIST AND THE SNAKE OIL IS QUICKLY EXPOSED... SO, LET'S HAVE IT.... A LIST OF BOOKS, WEBSITES AND CHATROOMS THAT ARE CRAP... LET'S EXPOSE THEM WHEN THEY REAR THEIR UGLY HEADS THROUGH THE USE OF COVERT MARKETING ON ELITETRADER... MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT... WE'RE GONNA RECLAIM THE TERRITORY... LET'S SMOKE OUT THE SNAKE OIL MERCHANTS, GET EM RUNNING AND TAKE JUSTICE TO EM...
I more or less agree with you, with one caveat. Trading is a microcosm for life as a whole. In every business arena there are "snake oil" dealers. My concern is for legitamately dedicated newcomers to the trading world that end up being conflicted by all the bashing of trading educators in general and at the same time knowing inside they need an education to succeed. Doctors don't do brain surgery without a lot of education. Lawyers don't do their thing without an education. Hell, even plumbers serve a pretty long apprenticeship. How come it's accepted to spend $20k-$100 on a 4 year degree, but somehow foolish to spend a few grand on learning how to trade. Granted, you better check out your teacher real carefully and make sure you're going to get what you need. But when I read some of the comments on these threads about how it's a rip-off for a trader to charge $10k to teach someone how to trade, I laugh, and then feel sorry for the person. Ten grand is a potential bargain compared to how much you might lose or compared to how much you might make more quickly with the right information. My comments are not intended to try and convince those who feel anyone charging for info on trading is a crook. My intention is to remind those of us who wish to be as successful as we know possible that GOOD education costs GOOD money. A close friend is an estate attourney who regularly bills $300/ hour. You can also get a will kit at Barnes & NOble for 19.95. If you've got a lot to lose who would you go to. The smartest and brightest among us keep getting educated. It's funny how when I attend seminars (or whatever you want to call them) it's always the same people showing up, gaining new experience, sharing how they're doing better, and excited to learn even more. The complainers and doubters never seem to get anywhere. I make this offer to any sincerely interested parties, if you want some input on educational choices e-mail me and we can discuss what I've done and how it's worked out. I am NOT a vendor. I'm just someone that has completely turned around my life in just about every area, because I have been able to (relatively inexpensively) gain the experience and knowledge that others have taken lifetimes to accrue . That's really what education is about.
It seems like a lot of the threads being started are: "Have you heard of such and such, I heard they are excellant" or something along those lines. Many vendors are just starting out (or on their last leg) and have neither knowledge to share or money, so maybe that is the most effective means. It seems like the community here does a pretty good job though of ignoring a lot of them, though it has also caused a lot of conflict. One solution might be for Barron to initiat a small membership fee and revoke your membership and remove your posts if you are breaking the rules. Brandon
Candle-This whole war thing has really gotten to you--get back to the zen man-wow. What you're doing with this thread is creating more controversy-more bickering on ET. We've been over this a thousand times already. However, I will agree that Linda's site is marvelous--Chris Terry who works with her is top notch. Hope some of you caught his slam bang webcast event from Tampa yesterday morning.
I would like to nominate Wade Cook. Wade Cook advertises on the radio for one, that you can make part time income working just 4 to 6 hours a week ( or is it a month). Make money whether the market goes up or down, he claims. Just come to one of his seminars that he charges $3500 dollars and up for to learn Wall Street's secrets! :eek: I talked to a friend last week. He told me last year he had attended a Wade Cook seminar and was doing some options trading. He had an expensive "discount" broker along with charting service and the whole ball of wax. I was afraid he was going to taken to the cleaners. I did the only thing I knew he might do. I sent him an email with IB's web site, and I also went him a link to Elite Trader. In our conversation last week, he told me he had lost $25k. This is a lot of money to this guy, and I feel bad for him. One of the problems I run across is, when you learn someone is about to get screwed, and you tell them what you think, they don't listen. They go on down the road, and make their mistakes. I guess that's how we all learn. How expensive it can be. There are many web sites describing the losses of Wade Cook seminar students. http://invest-faq.com/articles/warn-cook.html http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wade+cook&btnG=Google+Search
Nobody has said that you should jump into trading without education. The problem is 90-99% of these providers are snake oil vendors with FOOLISH statements like come and learn the secrets of trading , watch cash roll into your account, learn what 99% of traders don't know e.t.c .ITS ALL A BIG LIE . I like alphatrading because they are honest . MT make me angry because they are VERY dishonest IMO e.g they only call entries right ! so how do they claim that they are making all those points that they post on their web site . As you will know if you have traded ever in your life that you don't make money on entries . You only make money on exits. So why don't they call exits ??? because it will show their true ability as traders and i bet they are not good at all. some other crooks are those that post % return at high of the day hmmmmmmmm !!!!! what does that mean ? As candle said their are some good guys out their but they are very very few. I am consistently profitable and below is what i think is important a) as tony oz said to chartwitz in another thread " if you were paying me to provide you with calls , you bet i will show you my audited account if you ask" b) You will only make money after you have found a style that most suites your personality c) and learn the DETAILS of that strategy d) if you are new , read a few books , find a mentor ( someone who has been trading for a while and is PROVEN to be successful and PAY them whatever their fees is and learn from them.
True, there are some people willing to impart the basics of trading to newbies. Some sell books (Tony OZ), some sell day trading courses ie. basic how to trade futures etc. for about £200. Lately some American Gurus have tried to sell courses in the UK for thousands of dollars. After an initial period of time negative reviews of their courses quickly did the bulletin board round. Yet there will always be a lazy, indolent fool easily parted from his cash by the seller of magic trading potions. He is the Fool that recoils from the thought of having to endure an apprenticeship at the coalface of trading, or long hours of studying charts, economics and psychology. He is the Fool that cannot be bothered to read the free info. on web sites and bulletin boards. It follows that since there will always be Fools, there will always be vendors of the Holy Grail of trading. And if you think that a high price equates with good education, then you are an even bigger fool. Toby UK
Just a note. The reason there are so many "snake oil" type merchants and proven "trading systems" for sale is because being a successful trader is very difficult , and most traders are trying to find the "holy grail" for success. Successful traders trade and make a very good living trading. The top traders in our firm are never in chat rooms, do not write books or give advice. They trade successfully and are not known by the public. There are some successful traders who write books, give courses or "mentor" , but not many. There is one well know daytrading site where one of the principals charges $25,000 to spend a week for mentoring . Is it worth $25,000 to spend a week with someone who is successful or says he is? I will leave that up to you. All I can say is you can't "clone" yourself when it comes to trading. Is a piece of prediction software worth $10,000? If the software could accurately predict stock prices in any market, would the software be for sale at all at any price? I think common sense should prevail when looking at software and trading systems from so called experts. As a trader, you must learn the basics and develop your own trading style which will have to be adjusted according to market conditions. Trading software and EDAT execution software are tools which will help make money in experienced hands and loose money in the hands of the novice. Gene Weissman Lieber & Werissman Sec., L.L.C. gweissman@stocktrade.net
It's a mistake to bother with any of it. It's a whole different market that really has nothing to do with the stock market. It does add some "liquidity" to the stock market though.