Six biblical truths about money...

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by expiated, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. userque

    userque

    Never said that. [Neither has to be proven. Neither can be proven.]

    Despite how complicated this discussion may seem to the casual observer, it's really simple:

    @stu wanted a discussion, so I gave my opinions--boy was he upset:

    Neither (big bang theory, creationism) can be rigorously proven to a scientific certainty. Full stop.

    Both require faith in an initial premise. Full stop.

    This premise can't be mathematically derived. Full stop.

    @stu doesn't seem to enjoy the fact that belief in how the whole universe was created, necessarily requires some sort of initial 'given' to be assumed true; as the foundation to all that follows from that initial 'birth' of the universe; or birth of the precursors to the universe (strings, membranes, whatever it was that went BANG!, God).

    Bottom line: If either could've be proven by now, they would've been proven. So it boils down to ... a choice.

    I'm not sure who hurt @stu, but I'm praying for him. :D

    EDIT: These sorts of debates tend to assume that the two creation beliefs are mutually exclusive. They are not. As long as science can also not answer the "Why?" question (Why did it go BANG! Why were the membranes there in the first place?)--it's possible that "science explains how, God explains why." But that's a different discussion.

    "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
    #71     Apr 4, 2019
  2. A load of horseshit from you as usually.

    Big bang is a theory, gravity is a scientifically proven law. Please don't elevate a totally unproven idea in value.

    And no particles were ever created from nothing. No particles and no velocity no nothing, but suddenly you have a big bang and DNA and life forms. Don't make me laugh hysterically. I rather delight in Scientology and the mormons if you forced me to decide between this clown theory and mentioned sects.

    Yes religion is faith based, but so is your big bang theory (based on the idea something originates from nothing). The way crazier thing to believe is something came out of nothing. In that context believing in a creator God makes a million times more sense.

    And I understand we may disagree on this. And that is fine. But please stop telling people to educate themselves further each single time you fundamentally disagree with their thoughts because your big bang school sucks big time.

     
    #72     Apr 4, 2019
  3. I made the point early on that the idea that something originates from nothing is the possibly most flawed idea and as unscientific as it gets. But then the atheist thought police switched into full tilt and sent all the unbelievers back to re-education camp. Sometimes I get the impression that some are willing to twist their brains much further than a leap of faith for the possibility of the existence of a creator would require.

     
    #73     Apr 4, 2019
  4. Oh goodness, could you perhaps consider not throwing everyone in one pot? Yes there are some mentally challenged individuals who consider themselves Christian fundamentals. (And there are mentally challenged people who are not part of above group).

    Nobody forces others what to believe. You are free in your choice and nobody forces you to believe in something you don't want to believe in. Does that ease your hatred towards Christians somewhat?

     
    #74     Apr 4, 2019
    userque likes this.
  5. userque

    userque

    Yes, @stu never asked the obvious question (they never do): " ... why do you choose intelligent design over random creation ..."

    The more I learn about the complexities of our world; of life forms; the more impressed I become with the designer. There's tons more we don't/can't understand, than do, regarding our universe and existence.

    I wonder if you take all the individual parts of a computer, put them in a bucket, and shake it up for billions upon billions of years (maybe throw a lightning bolt or two in there), would you eventually get an assembled computer again? (Quantum theory says you would. Every screw will find it's proper place, and ... be screwed in by all the shaking. :) )

    Ok, maybe that's too difficult. A computer is tons more complicated than a life form. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
    #75     Apr 4, 2019
    GRULSTMRNN likes this.
  6. I actually believe that the hatred and anger some display here towards the Christian faith does not stem from the fact that it is faith based. Their leap of faith is much larger that a matter originated from nothing and in a probabilistic event that is infinitely small in chance. I believe their anger stems from "organized religion" that admittedly abused people for self serving purposes for centuries. Can't argue with that but what i argue is that there are "believers" by word only and not deed and then there are others who live out their faith in life. The problematic thing to do is to throw all people into one and the same pot, stir and then cast judgement via generalization.

     
    #76     Apr 4, 2019
    userque likes this.
  7. userque

    userque

    Here, we totally agree. I can't even add to it.

    Many years ago, an old man once told me at work after I said something to him regarding the job (forgot what I said), "...what you eat don't make me sh.t ..."

    @stu seems way too concerned about what others believe. Not to be disrespectful, but I do feel like others make him sh.t
     
    #77     Apr 4, 2019
  8. A lot of those generalizations originate from identity politics. If someone calls him or herself a Christian one must behave a certain way, if someone considers himself an atheist one has to behave a certain way. Nothing could be further from the truth. Each individual has complete freedom how they want to conduct themselves in and organize themselves around life. Of course each individual will be judged and measured by their deeds and hence I am often confused why atheists belittle those Christians who live a selfish life style as if there are not millions of atheists who do exactly the same. Atheists should rest assured that self serving Christians will be judged harshly at the end of their lives. And if someone takes offense at a Christian who wants to disciple others but lives a hypocritical life style then just ignore that person and move on. What I find funny is how atheists reserve self determination and are intolerant to those who follow a different faith yet want to enforce tolerance from everyone else.

     
    #78     Apr 5, 2019
    userque likes this.
  9. stu

    stu

    It was just a simple question. Why the hostility.

    Doesn't matter anyway. Science is so successful because it is a method based on doubt not on faith. Science is proof without conclusion, religious faith is conclusion without proof.

    Of course there's nothing wrong with those who live out their faith in life. There is however a problem in making false arguments by it, such as 'science is faith' and frankly silly things like, 'no faith is a faith'. It is ridiculous to suggest pushing back on that kind of nonsense is hatred toward Christians. Good grief. Is religious faith really that flaky and insecure?

    It did answer the "Why?". Gravity is the "Why?".
    At least get up to speed on these things.

    "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing"
    Hawking/Einstein or the supernatural.
    Math or Myth.
    Which is more likely.
    Just a simple question.
    No need for you to get nasty.

    Ok, you choose myth. You could have just said so in the first place.
    I respectively suggest the more you learn, the more you may come to understand how simple evolved to complex.
     
    #79     Apr 5, 2019
  10. userque

    userque

    LOL. From nothing to full blown universe because ... gravity. Guess what? gravity doesn't exist without matter. I feel silly debating this.

    Please explain to us how there can be nothing, no universe, no matter, no energy, no gravity, no light ... to full blown universe because of gravity (that wasn't present).

    We've got plenty of gravity now. Had it for thousands, millions, billions of years ... ever since the universe was formed. Why no more big bangs? Why just one? Why did it stop?

    Please link to Hawking papers explaining how the universe created itself from non-existent gravity. Please ... I'd love to read how that happened.

    Additionally, Hawking was wrong a lot. That notwithstanding, here's the real reason he said that self-serving silly statement:

    Stephen Hawking Was an Atheist. Here’s What He Said About God, Heaven and His Own Death
    http://time.com/5199149/stephen-hawking-death-god-atheist/
     
    #80     Apr 5, 2019