Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by expiated, Mar 24, 2019.
Your point? I mean after having taken partial sentences completely out of context...let me make it perhaps clearer: where did matter from, any element that must by scientific evidence be part of any collision of matter that, according to some, created the origins of this world? Who created that matter and the velocity, necessary, for any collision to happen? Where does it come from? No answer by any atheist to that I know, which proves my point, a fair question to ask is who created it. But to deny it was created by someone or something extremely powerful God like is basically denying science,the very same act they accuse Christians of.
Rather than view atheists as dumb, I see them as spiritually blind. The spiritually blind are simply unable to understand God's Word (Matthew 13:13; Deuteronomy 29:4) or the truth of Scripture. The truth sounds foolish to them (Isaiah 37:23; 1 Corinthians 1:18).
The cause of spiritual blindness is made quite clear: "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).
They are blind to the manifestations of God as revealed throughout His Word and Jesus Christ (John 1:1; Acts 28:26-27) and are described as those who "do not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
It is a grievous condition in that those who reject the Messiah are lost (John 6:68-69). Being spiritually blind, they are perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Revelation 3:17), so I do my best to be diplomatic with them. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).
Moreover, without the Messiah they are also spiritually dead. Paul describes it as "being alienated from the life of God" in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, that spiritual death is reversed. But before salvation, everyone is dead (spiritually). Only Yeshua can give us life (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV).
A dead person is powerless to do anything about their condition, so unless I myself am willing to intercede on their behalf, I at least hope that someone somewhere who knows them personally is praying for them.
In John 6:44 Yeshua says that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." While we are dead in our sins and in the uncircumcision of our sinful nature, only God can make us alive with Christ (Colossians 2:13).
Because of their blindness and rejection of God and His Word, they are in a perilous, unsaved condition (John 12:48; Hebrews 2:2-4). To illustrate, think of Jesus' raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is "the Resurrection and the Life" (John 11:25).
At Yeshua's call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus calls us to Himself. To put it another way, the Holy Spirit must "quicken" us by the mercy of God (Titus 3:5).
Because of their condition, I do my best to be cognizant of their situation whenever I choose to interact with unbelievers, and if I really want to get involved, I pray the Holy Spirit acts to convict them of their unbelief.
For no amount of preaching or pleading will do anything unless the Holy Spirit is at work in the person's heart. And once a person responds to the Spirit's conviction and turns to faith in Christ, everything else will be taken care of. It is the sin of unbelief—their refusal to trust in Yeshua the Messiah—that is primary.
I will try not to give in to the temptation to type anything in this thread not having to do with my original topic. But in this case, I could not resist...
When it comes to explaining the existence of the universe, there are only four real possibilities:
It is an illusion.
It created itself.
It is self-existent and eternal.
It was made by someone or something other than itself.
However, sheer logic eliminates all but one of these possibilities.
Think about it. If the first option is correct and the universe is an illusion, there has to be someone or something experiencing that illusion, which means this choice still leaves us with three unanswered questions:
Did the something or someone experiencing this illusion create itself?
Is that something or someone self-existent and eternal?
Or, was he, she or it made by something or someone other than itself?
Do you see the problem? We pretty much end up right back where we started. So, let’s consider the next possibility—that the universe created itself.
One might rightly argue that this possibility is totally illogical. One of the most fundamental ontological principles of metaphysics is that you cannot get something out of nothing, which is supported by the first law of thermodynamics; that under normal conditions, matter and energy are neither created nor lost.
On top of this, you have the law of cause and effect, which states that for every material effect there must be a sufficient preexisting cause. Moreover, the notion of self-creation violates the law of non-contradiction, which holds that a thing cannot be “A”—and not be “A”—at the exact same time and in the exact same relationship. In other words, in order for the universe to create itself, it would have had to have existed before it existed, which is utter nonsense. So, as for the universe having created itself, this is a completely irrational and illogical explanation. Since matter could not have created itself, it had to have been created by something that transcends the physical world. And of course, the term for that which transcends the material is "spirit," which leads us right back to God.
But wait! Is it possible that the universe always was? To put it another way, could the universe be self-existent and eternal?
Probably not, since this explanation flies in the face of what is currently the most widely accepted paradigm within the scientific community…that the universe had a definite beginning. Since the empirical evidence does not support the notion that the universe has always existed, one would have to accept this theory by faith—not based on science or logic.
We are therefore left with just one possibility: The universe had to have been created by someone or something other than itself.
Now, some like to claim the universe was created by chance, but chance is not an entity and therefore has no power over anything. It is simply a word used to describe the concept of possibility. Odds do not make a horse win or cause a coin to come up heads. Rather, it is one or more “forces” that influence such outcomes. Chance is merely a concept. To say that chance created the universe is equivalent to saying nothing created the universe, which is another way of saying the universe created itself, a notion already shown to be illogical. It is utter nonsense to say the universe came into being out of nothing, because of nothing, and by the power of nothing. In short, the claim that chance brought the universe into existence is unworthy of science.
No, logic dictates there was never a time when there was nothing. Otherwise, there would be nothing still. If there is anything—and there obviously is—it is a logical necessity for something to be eternal and self-existent. And of course, it is God alone who has the power of being within Himself.
According to science, we need a preexisting, nonphysical, supernatural, tremendously powerful intervening force to have been responsible for creating the world. Now, if that doesn’t sound like God to you, there's really nothing more I can say, except that despite all the brouhaha to the contrary, there is nothing in the biblical understanding of God that contradicts modern science. No law of rationality is violated by the concept of a God who is, in His very being, self-existent.
According to the Bible, God is spirit and therefore transcends matter, energy, space and time, resolving the question of the universe popping into existence out of nothing. (It did not come from nothing—it came from God.)
Since God is both eternal and all-powerful, He is a more-than-sufficient, preexisting cause for the effect we know as the universe, thereby satisfying the law of cause and effect.
While the first law of thermodynamics states that under normal conditions matter and energy are neither created nor lost, God is supernatural, so by definition, the world was not formed under natural circumstances.
So you see, Yahweh, as He is described in the Bible, meets every precondition science sets forth for whatever brought this universe into being, even though the Bible was written long before the above mentioned laws and principles were ever articulated. And this is just a single piece out of hundreds from a puzzle showing God to be real indeed!
But I digress...
Recapping the six biblical truths about money:
God also asks us to give of our time, energy, and talent.
It's not our money. (We are managers/stewards—not owners.)
God loves a cheerful giver.
Giving to Yahweh is an act of worship.
Giving is a form of spiritual investment.
It is impossible to out give God.
I cannot disagree more. No, a rational person always and in all circumstances comes to the conclusion that everything was created by someone. There is no room for any other interpretation. Even believing in miracles only works when acknowledging the existence of the one performing the miracle. Believing in the existence of nothing is ridiculously unscientific and plain dumb. One can believe in the unscientific spiritual and not be stupid but one can't at the same time believe in the existence of nothing and at the same time in the existence of derivative products. Or to put it simpler, you can't believe at the same time in the created but not in the creator unless you are plain stupid.
My point is you were calling people dumb after making what is a pretty dumb statement yourself. Partial sentence or not, it wasn't taken out of context as it is the context.
It is irrational, or if you prefer, dumb to say something is powerful enough when you've just said it can't be measured in power.
Then as everything was created by someone, a rational person must come to the conclusion someone created God.
Like people for instance!
Claiming to know what is currently unknowable isn't dumb, it's delusional. Be you a God created it all, or a something from nothing bing banger, all you have is a theory and your belief system that you put your faith in. I have no issues with that, none at all. Just don't try to convince me your theory is fact.
Only if you subscribe more power to people than God. That is a choice you yourself have to make.
You can believe anything you like. Nobody sold you any belief system as fact. I certainly did not. I claimed believing in nothing is the most unscientific and illogical choice, however.
Well here's the thing. I don't have to subscribe or make any choice at all.
Your own rationality was arguing 'everything has to be created by someone'. Now you're saying it doesn't?
Separate names with a comma.