The Hitman Logic: "nothing is 100% right, nothing is 100% wrong, thus nothing is right or wrong". Uh..maybe you should go back and read the previous posts where this fallacy is uncovered for what it is. Or at least take a basic course in argumentation at Baruch or wherever you've registered for part time classes. Throw in a business ethics course too while you're there. I have absolutely no doubt you would feel this way, Hitman, since I know you and you don't have an ethical bone in your 20 year old body. It's sad, but whatever. Your life, not mine. As well, since you have no ethical character, it of course comes as no surprise to me at all that you admit you would raise the price of water in my example. It is EXACTLY people like you that run the "nothing is 100% right, nothing is 100% wrong" bull, it's a simplistic way to rationalize your behavior. I emphasize the "simplistic" part. Wet
No amount of education can teach ethics, character, nor philosophy. Everyone has different perspectives and values, hence to teach it is pointless. Even if you have a PHD in ethics/philosophy, big deal, the only philosophy that matters, is my own. That set of parameters makes me who I am, different from others. Your character/value/philosophy/ethics is definitely not superior to anyone else's, because everyone must decide what is most important to them. As sad as it is, why does the good always vanquish the evil? Because the good is always the strongest side. Think about this for a second, if the U.S. is not the superpower it is many many countries would have went to war with us without resorting to terrorist tactics, had Hitler conquered the world the history book would have made him the father of all nations. I don't care what others think of fallacy, my beliefs make me do what I see fit, so does yours.
Yup. You're living proof of that one! Would I say that my ethics or character is superior to yours? Are you kidding? I wouldn't jack up the price of water to people burning in a fire, you admitted you would. That makes you a lowlife. By the way if you really think good and evil is a matter of perspective, then your Hitler banter makes no sense, since there would be no "good side" to claim always wins. Go register for those Baruch courses I mentioned before the add/drop period ends. Wet
Hitman I have to rethink my faith and support of you. What is happening with you? Are these words really coming out of your brain-and even worse you have the courage to put this stuff on the board -- perhaps a terrorist has a gun to your head--that must be it. I don't know. This talk is unbecoming man. Really.
Hitman, You said: "as long as I am breathing I still have a career as a professional trader and I must act professionally." You know what. That's very similar to what the Nazi doctors and scientists said when they did what they did to their "patients." stockoptionist
<b>Wet:</b> Sorites arguments... If one man dies, is it a tragedy? If two men dies, is it a tragedy? Three? Four? How many does it take for an incident to be a tragedy? Likewise, you can do the reverse... A person has ten million dollars and he's a rich man. Remove one dollar and he's still rich. Remove another dollar, still rich. Remove another dollar, and so on. These are sorites arguments using addition and substraction. ----------------------- You're claim that if I trade on Monday, I'm taking advantage of the WTC tragedy. But here is your paradoxical problem. Why is trading on Monday unethical whereas trading on Tuesday is not? Logically, Monday is not different than Tuesday. They are both trading days. If Monday is a trading day and Tuesday is a trading day, how is Monday unethical and Tuesday is not? Just because Monday is the "first trading day" after the incident? Is that your only reason? Furthermore, you can't claim that buying long is more ethical than selling short. The terrorist themselves may be long in the market! If there is a patriotic rally and you buy long then you are taking advantage of a tragedy (to use your argument). This "patriotic rally" is an emotional consequence of the WTC incident. As for that water tower question, if the people consider the water too expensive they'll buy a caseload of water from Costco. If they do this long enough, Hitman will have to lower his price to match or beat Costco. Capitalism. Supply and Demand. MGB
I hesitate to even post again on this thread just because it will go to the top of the list again and never dissapear. Lol. But I just can't resist. It's obvious this event has created several ethical questions about our careers and it's also obvious that all the arguing in the world won't ever get us all to agree. So everyone should just forget about trying to "convert" everyone else to their set of ethics and get on with their trading and lives. The interesting thing about this thread is that it actually gives me more confidence in the market. It proves that events change but people don't. There will always be people with different opinions therefore creating a market. If we all agreed we couldn't trade at all. Who would take the other side? So let's quit preaching ethics and get back to trading. The one thing we all have in common. This board used to have a real sense of comradarie but now it feels like a war zone. I really love this board and hope it can get back to the selfless, everyone willing to help everyone else, type of board it used to be. One final thought. Out of all the posts on here, I can't help but laugh about the general attitude toward shorting. You all make it sound like shorting is the guaranteed road to riches (regardless of ethics). Don't short and profit from this, don't short and profit from that, etc, etc. What makes you all so confident you'll make any money from shorting in the first place? The sad truth is, is that the shorts will have just as hard a time trading as the longs. The market will gap down and chop around in a totally unpredictabel fashion just like it has the last couple of months. The only thing predictable is unpredictableness! Good luck and God.....yes, please do bless America. If terrorists don't kill us, I'm sure we'll kill ourselves.
<b>Huby:</b> You'll notice that this thread was started by someone who didn't want other traders to short the market. Talk to him. He's trying to convince the rest of us to his mentality. I shared what I plan to do. That is, trade both sides of the market. MGB
"Love is the greatest strength, I do what I do for a living, to make the life of those I love better, nothing and nothing else is under my concern." (by Hitman) I like you for the first part of that sentence, it's shocking to read how you finish it. On second thoughts though, there's nothing immoral about it, it's just plain impossible. "Love thy neighbour and forget about everybody else" That is just not possible. The way you relate to other people is effected by the world you live in and the way you relate to that world. Trying to build your own little niche full of love and peace and forgetting about the ugly world outside just isn't going to work. "This board used to have a real sense of comradarie but now it feels like a war zone. I really love this board and hope it can get back to the selfless, everyone willing to help everyone else, type of board it used to be." (by huby) You're probably right huby, but then why add your own contribution to the discussion? OK, so it may be difficult to let the matter rest. Let it be. "He's trying to convince the rest of us " (by MGB) Isn't that what a discussion is all about? God bless the world, please not only America!
Micheal (MGB): First, I think you may have missed my earlier point. You are right to claim that the dollar argument is a sorites, but then you go and use one yourself regarding the current situation. What I claimed earlier was that sorites arguments are NOT valid arguments. They are invalid, any introduction to logic book will tell you so. They rely on a fallacy of clarity. As someone that teaches logic, they are entirely unpersuasive to me. See stockoptionists' post above somewhere about the sorites and why it is bad. So I won't comment on your sorites, since it is not a good argument. Second, if you had read my previous postings, I make it clear that my disagreement with those wanting to short airlines and insurance companies (which is what my argument was just to recap) had nothing to do with bin Laden's holdings or his associates' holdings. I simply said that profiting from this tragedy by shorting airlines and insurance companies was unethical. This is separate from the holdings of terrorists. Third, I'm not buying, selling, going long or short, I'm not benefiting from the tragedy in any way. I'm staying out for now. So no, I'm not set to benefit from any patriotic rally (I doubt that will occur anyway). Fourth, I honestly hope you have more character than to try to defend Hitman's water comment (or his WTC comment, which is far worse) with a claim that "well, that's how capitalism works". Please tell me that was some kind of bizarre joke or something. I've seen people blindly defend that idiot before time and time again, or ignore his lunatic comments, but YOU? On this subject too? C'mon man take a stand for god's sake. HUBY: True, argumentation in these situations rarely changes anyone's minds. But that doesn't mean that one should keep silent. Second, no I don't think shorting anything is easy, just as much as I don't think it is easy to go long. But I never implied this, nor did my argument rely on it. Shorting could be ungodly difficult to accomplish successfully (as I suspect it will be at the open), yet the ATTEMPT to successfully short airlines and insurance companies still remains unethical right now. You make it sound that an action is unethical only if it succeeds. In other words, I could TRY to commit unethical acts all day long, but if I keep failing, I must be a straight-up ethical kind of guy. That's pretty funny. I'll assume you were joking. Wet