Short-selling DITM options

Discussion in 'Options' started by marsman, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. marsman

    marsman

    If it goes ITM, then you hedge with the underlying. Net effect is about PnL=0. So what?
    I bind the cash needed for hedging only a few days, as these are weeklys or bi-weeklys.
    And when hedging activates then the position counts as "covered"...
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
    #31     Jun 21, 2016
  2. Lee-

    Lee-

    I understand what you're saying, you buy the underlying if the price gets close to the strike price, which will eliminate the possibility of a "blow up", remove assignment risk, and eliminate a margin call -- provided you have enough in your account to actually buy the underlying. There's 2 key problems I see with buying the underlying when the price nears the strike:

    1) You actually have to have the capital in your account to buy the underlying. This means that you must limit the number of contracts you short sell such that you can afford to buy the underlying if its price comes close to the strike (this means you need to calculate based on the assumption that the underlying's price is close to the strike, not its current price, which is much below the strikes you're shorting).

    2a) The case of the underlying coming near your strike and then dropping. The options trades you've been talking about are for premiums on the order of $0.2/share. If you buy the underlying when it reaches the strike, that's fine if the price continues to go up, but what if it doesn't? You lose if the price drops below your purchase price - the options premium - commissions.

    2b) You could say if the underlying reaches the strike and then drops, you'll sell, but what if it begins oscillating at or near the strike. How do you deal with this situation?

    I do think that buying the underlying if it gets near your strike is a way to reduce some risks, it introduces another. It also requires you to limit the how much of your account is used on a single short option position such that you can afford the underlying. This will affect your projected PnL.

    Just some things to consider. I'm no expert, but I've been doing a lot of my own analysis of options planning on automating my own ideas and I'm pretty sure I know your strategy. It's pretty simple. When you have a simple strategy you need to think, "why aren't other people doing this?" The answer is almost always because the probability of loss * value of loss > probability of success * value of success, or using better statistical terms, the expected value over a long time frame is <= ~0.
     
    #32     Jun 22, 2016
    Chubbly and sss12 like this.
  3. donnap

    donnap

    Successful trading may be a long and arduous road.

    You may go down this road and find that it works four out of five times. But the one that doesn't work wipes out the others.

    And you may find that there is no edge to this strategy. And you may get discouraged and quit.

    But you may find yourself going down many other trading roads and asking yourself, "how do I work this?"

    And you may find yourself trading pairs.

    And you may find yourself trading earnings.

    And you may find yourself trading complex option positions.

    And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have I done?"

    Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
    Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
    Into the blue again after the money's gone
    Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

    Same as it ever was
    Same as it ever was
     
    #33     Jun 22, 2016
    Chubbly likes this.
  4. It was six men of Indostan
    To learning much inclined,
    Who went to see the Elephant
    (Though all of them were blind),
    That each by observation
    Might satisfy his mind

    The First approached the Elephant,
    And happening to fall
    Against his broad and sturdy side,
    At once began to bawl:
    “God bless me! but the Elephant is very like a wall!”

    The Second, feeling of the tusk,
    Cried, “Ho! what have we here
    So very round and smooth and sharp?
    To me ’tis mighty clear
    This wonder of an Elephant
    Is very like a spear!”

    The Third approached the animal,
    And happening to take
    The squirming trunk within his hands,
    Thus boldly up and spake:
    “I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
    Is very like a snake!

    The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
    And felt about the knee.
    “What most this wondrous beast is like
    Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
    ” ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!”

    The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
    Said: “E’en the blindest man
    Can tell what this resembles most;
    Deny the fact who can
    This marvel of an Elephant
    Is very like a fan!”


    So oft in theologic wars,
    The disputants, I ween,
    Rail on in utter ignorance
    Of what each other mean,
    And prate about an Elephant
    Not one of them has seen!
     
    #34     Jun 22, 2016
  5. Not to state the obvious, but this sounds eerily similar to the thread with the guy selling his options trading system for a few hundred k...all of it built on alot of hypothetical assumptions that don't mesh with the realities of the markets.
     
    #35     Jun 22, 2016
  6. marsman

    marsman

    FYI: I'm not selling anything.
    Except short-selling options of course... :D
     
    #36     Jun 22, 2016
  7. sss12

    sss12

    . I believe der k.'s point is that this forum has seen many posters with hypo's, theories , etc. but no real world trading experience to back them up. Until there is skin in the game it is all talk.
     
    #37     Jun 22, 2016
  8. marsman

    marsman

    Hmm, yes, I must admit this applies also to me, a newbie, as I'm still preparing for going live soon :). My trades so far have all just been some test-trades, nothing real yet...
    I might have some good theoretical background, but I lack practical experience yet, but hopefully this is going to change very soon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
    #38     Jun 22, 2016
  9. JackRab

    JackRab

    To be honest, you lack some serious theoretical background as well...

    As I pointed out in your other thread... when you have an open short option it can (and will at one point) go against you in multiple scenario's, as sss12 mentioned as well.

    Vola shift, a move in underlying against you, even interest rate move, dividend announcement not priced in... if that happens you WILL take a hit on your margin requirement and have to post more margin. And since you are looking to maximize your positions, probably max out your margins... you will get hit with a margin call and HAVE to cut your trade... that's really a non discussion. You can't backtrack in time and hedge your trade in hindsight..
    You hit the strike, you have a theoretical/paper loss.. and have to post more margin... it's that simple.

    Even if the move is not as big as to hit your strike, you can still be forced out because you have no more cash left to post the margin for the loss you have... You can't just say: "ow shit, but it's still only on paper!! So please don't ask for more margin mr Broker..."
     
    #39     Jun 23, 2016
  10. JackRab

    JackRab

    I hope you don't take offence at my comments Marsman, I'm only trying to make you realize some of your misconceptions about risk, so you don't get hammered...
     
    #40     Jun 23, 2016