http://management.curiouscatblog.net/2006/04/07/manufacturing-jobs-data-usa-and-china/ Note this: I conclude that, during the period 1990 to early-2005, US manufacturing productivity growth cost the US several times more manufacturing jobs than all other factors combined-âincluding global competition. If you actually read about the subject this is conclusion you get from many different sources. You have to get beyond daily news and politics though!!! So thread was actually initiated by bitching about productivity gains. Those darned efficiency gains. Do away with it and bring back PONY EXPRESS, stagecoaches etc.
Completely correct. "As is" the average American lives better and longer than those of us in past generations. Until the early 70's folks starving in Appalachia and tin roofed shanty towns in the South were a painful reality. Most of those "content" factory workers of yore dropped dead long before their widow reaped their pension. The world's playing field is quickly leveling out. Fantastic news for Humanists who celebrate equality along with prosperity. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Perhaps if the government's plan, as I clearly remember Bush stating in the State of the Union last year, wasn't to retrain those losing their manufacturing jobs some people would feel better. Government incentives for companies to stay here would help and tariffs against countries like China that keep their exports cheap would also be responsible. I'm not sure how you can compete against a country that artificially keeps products cheap or retrain a bunch of 50 year old laid off factory workers. That's the problem that places like Mexico have...we helped them with that after all and now we do it to ourselves? We're racing to the bottom...and as in many things, the US seems to be leading.
Not sure what is meant by tax incentives to outsource. Maybe there would be no incentive if we didn't tax income higher than the places where companies move. Anybody for that? If flipping burgers and other such service jobs are such a drag on our economy, maybe we should just outlaw such jobs? How are we supposed to get a hamburger if there are no hamburger flippers. You don't want anybody to occupy these jobs? Oh yeah, that would be a paradise. No low skilled jobs in this country. By decree.
Reality check- people still come to this country for skilled jobs and education. The US still imports a couple thousand doctors each year. And while it may be difficult to be laid off in your 40s or 50s, at least you have the potential to improve your education and skills at any age and change career paths. These things just aren't possible in most other parts of the world. Most immigrants who come to this country still talk about the education and economic opportunities in the US. Ironically the people already here seem to forget these things. st
Excuse me? The people behind offshoring are still having problems justifying the numbers behind the individual initivatives. The only way money is saved is by a serious decrease in quality. It's a hell of a racket, because you have people whose bonuses and jobs depend on the offshoring trend and you can bet your @$$ that they will lie and cheat to get it done. But that's besides the point, because how in the world can you claim that offshoring benefits USA on the economic front. It means people without a job. It means whole towns and cities having their economies destroyed and thrown into a sh*thole. I don't get why you are so happy to watch this country go down the toilet. Or even if you are not happy to see this, why do you support it so much. Maybe you get a kick out of being more privilieged than the masses, and that's fine, to each his own. But maybe you should consider that at a boiling point, you will be labeled the enemy by the underprivilieged. P.S. I don't see how America is a net winner even on the consumer side. Those Indian call centers are horrific and do not get any better. It's one big mess. The Indian tech support is a nightmare. Their database & PC work sucks as well. I think the overall feedback is very negative on the Indian offshoring trend, not hard to find proof of it. The cheap Chinese goods, that I can see. Although it may not be too logical to have cheap goods when there are not any jobs to provide income to buy them.
Pabst, I'm not a liberal in any way, shape or form. I hate high taxes, am for a flat tax, and am for free markets. I'm also not a neocon, by any stretch, as the GOP has been twisted and contorted and discredited by neocon fantasies. I am a libertarian, and always have been. You err when you make assumptions, especially of the kind that libertarians can't believe, on a good faith basis, that the the GOP has been hijacked by special interests that seek not to implement Laissez-faire policy, but policies that cater to special, vested interests, at the expense of the free market and Laissez-faire capitalism. The question you should ask yourself is whether government subsidies to outsource jobs is in keeping with the spirit of free markets. Also, what about foreign governments subsidizing wages of workers so that multi-nationals can hire an employee who is less productive than their American counterpart? Do you not understand that this is going on? Thunderdog, it is true that the Bush Admin at least contemplated the notion that hamburger workers were being employed in the "manufacturing" sector: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04073/285078.stm " Editorial: McJobs mistake / Sorry, but burger flipping isn't manufacturing Saturday, March 13, 2004 Since George W. Bush became president the economy has lost 2.8 million factory jobs, but his administration is floating an idea that could dramatically boost manufacturing jobs overnight. It sounds too good to be true. And it is. The presidential proposition wouldn't actually create any new jobs but would reclassify them and thereby swell job statistics in a declining sector of the economy. Poof! Problem solved. Incredible as it seems, the Bush administration is pointedly questioning whether flipping hamburgers should be included in jobs associated with factory work or remain classified as part of the service sector. Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, observed one parody, Mr. Bush is angling to become the "Manufacturing McJobs" president. In the recent Economic Report of the President sent to Congress, the issue of whether fast-food enterprises like McDonald's and Burger King should be reclassified as manufacturers was prominently highlighted for discussion. The annual report by the President's Council of Economic Advisers claimed the current system for classifying jobs was "not straightforward" and invited confusion into the equation about whether an industry could be classified as manufacturing. While most clear-thinking individuals would consider it a stretch to compare the assembly of pickle, patty and bun with the assembly of a new Jeep, the presidential report on the health of the economy nevertheless pondered the possibility. "When a fast-food restaurant sells a hamburger, for example," the report asks, "is it providing a 'service' or is it combining inputs to 'manufacture a product?' " Care for some input with those fries? Speaking of ketchup, didn't another administration try to reclassify it as a vegetable for school lunches in an early federal regulatory proposal? The chairman of the president's economic council stresses proper job classification is "an important consideration" when setting economic policy and deciding which businesses ought to receive tax relief. True enough, but is Gregory Mankiw -- the same person to suggest that the expatriation of service jobs could be beneficial to the economy -- the one to clarify the manufacturing category? Imagine a fast-food factory promised on every other city block during a presidential election year. It won't fool folks in Pennsylvania who are trying to retain what's left of real manufacturing jobs."
I'd agree if the tide was rising, but it's not. The fact is, we're lowering our standards across the board so everyone else can compete. That, in my opinion is a recipe for disaster.
Funny thing is I was going to post that the single dumbest thing the government does is put a low cap on the amount of specialized work visas they hand out every year. I didn't but you mentioned it. They run out of them in 1(fucking) day...that's crazy. The demand far outpaces supply. You can read about Sweden, Norway, Korea, etc. all moving ahead in areas ranging from architecture to stem cell research and that's the fault of the government...whether due to limiting stem cell research or not letting in all the world's brilliant minds who may want to come in. It's very sad I think. New York is a bastion of foreigners from all over the world who excel in what they do, why not let more of the best in? It's fucking stupid. Are you fucking kidding me? People who worked at a GM plant for 30 years can't just jog over to the community college, learn about web design, and get a job. Are you kidding? Even if that 50 something did retrain(yeah right), who would hire him?!!? And if you think our education system is better than those in Europe you might be a little insane. Private education might be great, but that's private education. I can tell you that most foreigners(from Europe and many other countries to boot) know more about American history than American kids. That's the sad truth...so if you think the US offers the world's best free education you might want to actually talk to some foreigners.