Selling out of the money puts with low risk

Discussion in 'Options' started by shortbleu, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. THAT is an argument I can get behind -- effort and tax exposure don't justify the return, at least for some people. I don't have anywhere near 70 trades going at any one time, and for those of mine that are B&H (AZO, MCD, PFE, WMT, etc.), I am happy to sell OTM calls. I haven't had any problems so far, but we're in a bull market. Backtesting indicates it's a winning proposition, though. We'll see.
     
    #41     Aug 26, 2013
  2. taleb talks alot about convexity , and concavity .. something you should look into... these strategies your talking about are all concave in nature..
     
    #42     Aug 26, 2013
  3. Please understand every argument I have made supporting these kinds of strategies are exclusively in the context of B&H as the benchmark. What does Taleb say about that?
     
    #43     Aug 26, 2013
  4. TskTsk

    TskTsk

    Taleb says you should not invest alltogether because "we just dont know!" and historical data is useless because we never know when an asteroid will hit the earth.
     
    #44     Aug 26, 2013
  5. Isn't his idea to buy cheap options out on the tails and keep everything else in treasuries?
     
    #45     Aug 26, 2013
  6. Good point, that's true in practice.

    FWIW though, I think the difference in performance of PUT/BXM comes from the difference in strikes. BXM is one strike above prevailing SP and PUT is one below. Looking at the CBOE data, PUT outperforms on down days and vice versa. And to jimmyjazz's point earlier in the thread, BXY is a further otm strike.

    Mav also makes a good point with etfs/funds. There's PBP/BWV which are etfs for the SP and DPO for the dow - and investors can even trade them against each other:D
     
    #46     Aug 26, 2013
  7. TskTsk

    TskTsk

    His idea is to highlight wild risks, much like legislators and personal-injury lawyers, point out anecdotes of financial crisises, market it to idiots and rape them with fees. Long tails is exposure to something unquantifiable, like the endless opportunities offered by spammers or late-night paid-TV touts. Sooner or later you're bound to strike gold, right?
     
    #47     Aug 26, 2013
  8. newwurldmn

    newwurldmn

    Yeah. It has to do with skew in the puts. I was surprized that 1 or 2 strikes mattered that much of the long term.
     
    #48     Aug 26, 2013
  9. Maverick74

    Maverick74

    Alright, let me try this again. Yes, your volatility is lower with the short put because you are laying off all the "upside" volatility that you actually WANT to have. If you sold puts on TSLA when it was $30 and locked in a measly $2 while the stock runs to $150, your short put has MUCH less volatility, but not in a good way! And before you talk about how rare that move is, all it takes is one 100 pt move like that to make up for 50 different trades where the stock doesn't even move at all. Trust me dude, it's a mathematically inferior strategy.

    Most of the studies done on this type of strategy are done with an index and yes, an index will probably perform the most efficiently because indices in general have the least upside potential. So it only makes sense that if you are giving away the upside, you want that upside to be as small as possible.
     
    #49     Aug 26, 2013
  10. Agreed on the index argument. TSLA isn't the kind of stock I'd play this way. JNJ, now that's different.
     
    #50     Aug 26, 2013