Nothing more lame than the old underhanded out of context dig. Well done. When you wish to explain why you think axiom was not only a more appropriate word but that my use of tautology was incorrect - you can regain your dignity on this thread. Troll.
vhehn - I did not respond this time, because this time I thought your comment was a fair one. It would take work to examine. Work I do not have the time to put in right now.
what the hell are you talking about? you attempted (a poor attempt, I might add) to correct my use of language. I was the one who pointed out your argument was b.s. since it was set up as a strawman.
Calm down jem, you're getting yourself in knots again... try it slowly.... step by step Barth Vader said nothing would or could "pre-date" the Creator. " I pointed out... Existence must have predated a Creator. Then you, obviously way out of your depth said this: I find it interesting that you crafted a tautology - et up a strawman Now, Barth has gone quiet, made a dignified retreat perhaps, but you can't even tell the difference between axiom and tautology. Creators can't exist unless existence exists . It's axiomatic. Therefore something must predate God. There is no a strawman, nor a tautology. Doesn't fit either of those definitions although you could only manage to look one of them up..
The Bible also states that bats are birds. Science states that bats are not birds, but mammals. The Job reference to leviathan cannot be a dinosaur, since large dinosaurs went extinct millions of years before man appeared. Or have you found other evidence to the contrary (LOL)? The Bible has SO many statements of scientific stupidity this board has no room for all of them, and I don't have the time right now. PM me, and I will be happy to help, when I have the time.
The biblical accounts of creation have long been scientifically refuted. I cannot understand why someone would CHOOSE to live in ignorance. But then I have a hard time understanding irrational behavior and beliefs.
This is an interesting assertion. I suppose it is like the philosophical question, does such a thing as "beauty" exist without an observer. Does existence require consciousness to define it? If so, then yes, nothing could pre-date it. Though I suppose, since time is being used as the measuring stick, one could argue that a "Creator" and "Existence" both occur at the same instant - no time lapse. Existence and awareness of existence simultaneously. Though even using time as the qualifier might not be quite right... An argument for the ages...