Scientist retract 50 year old paper

Discussion in 'Politics' started by james_bond_3rd, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. Quoting Bertrand Russell's prose (from wikipedia):

    "If we say that the things known must be in the mind, we are either un-duly limiting the mind's power of knowing, or we are uttering a mere tautology. We are uttering a mere tautology if we mean by 'in the mind' the same as by 'before the mind', i.e. if we mean merely being apprehended by the mind. But if we mean this, we shall have to admit that what, in this sense, is in the mind, may nevertheless be not mental. Thus when we realize the nature of knowledge, Berkeley's argument is seen to be wrong in substance as well as in form, and his grounds for supposing that 'idea'-i.e. the objects apprehended-must be mental, are found to have no validity whatever. Hence his grounds in favour of the idealism may be dismissed."

    If the validity of your argument rests on whether a bee has a mind...
     
    #41     Oct 30, 2007
  2. stu

    stu

    Right, so the thought (mental experience) is real.
    The thing which exists in this case is a thought . You use logic or material evidence to substantiate the truth of that.
    However, the thing in the thought, doesn't necessarily exist.
    So how you going to check if it does? With another thought as insubstantial as the one that thought of it, but couldn't access the truth of its existence?. Or with logic or material evidence, which showed you it can substantiate the truth that a thought exists .
    You determine the truth of this...how? With another thought of the same quality that established the concept of a nine-million ton chicken ? That would hardly be reliable
    But the chicken doesn't exist you say.. Much in the same way a thought about " the door to a universe of truth other than that which can be supported by logic or material evidence. " doesn't exist?

    Thoughts exist, things in thoughts , not necessarily. You need to add something to help see if those things in thoughts are true.
    Would you not be better off using some logic or material evidence at this (and every other) point?
     
    #42     Oct 30, 2007
  3. Why do you assume that anybody has to decide what exists or doesn't exist in order for that which exists to exist?

    The universe is brimming over with things that exist without our being aware of them. These things don't wait to have their existence bestowed upon them by us.

    There are details in the room in which are now that are real even though you've never noticed them.

    Anything you can imagine exists in your imagination. The thing you imagine may not exist outside your imagination but your imagining of it does exist in your imagination.

    I doubt that a unicorn is real (who knows? It's a big universe) but I can imagine a unicorn and that mental image of a unicorn is real.

    If mental experiences are not real how is it mental experiences can affect the material world? Do bridges and skyscrapers simply appear on their own? Do your hands and feet move of their own accord?

    There is no way to demonstrate that there is a clear demarcation between mind and matter. For this reason restricting reality to material things is arbitrary and unintelligent.

    Does nothing exist? Excellent question, but this post is already too long and I have to get back to trading.
     
    #43     Oct 30, 2007
  4. Because if you can't decide what exists and what doesn't, then how do you know what exists and what doesn't?
     
    #44     Oct 30, 2007
  5. Get back to you later. Gotta go out for a while.
     
    #45     Oct 30, 2007
  6. Well.. you usually don't. But often you can know. I'm rushed right now. Back to you later. You raise some good issues.
     
    #46     Oct 30, 2007
  7. are you sure you have to take off now or is it all in your head
     
    #47     Oct 30, 2007
  8. :D :D
     
    #48     Oct 30, 2007
  9. I'm not an idealist: I don't believe that the world is all in our minds. It we all croak tomorrow the universe will still be here. But I'm saying that for each of us there's a subjective reality that's as valid and true as the material world.

    Hans
    (Heidegger R.I.P.)
     
    #49     Oct 30, 2007
  10. pattersb

    pattersb Guest


    well, as a rationalist, you should be able to find value in faith, rather than an eagerness to destroy it, and prove its falsity and worthlessness.

    even "the men of reason" have a leap of faith from time to time, except of course those who are already suffocated by their beliefs.
     
    #50     Oct 30, 2007