Scalping ES

Discussion in 'Educational Resources' started by Lucias, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. Lucias


    There is a vendor (Levine) who claims they make 5k-8k per month scalping ES with only a 5k account (after fees/commissions). Many know this vendor here: I'm not referring to the website because I'm a bit dubious.

    As "evidence", they send an Excel file but no real money brokerage statements (not even the sim trade statements). The Excel file is just what the number of points they claim to made per day and month and the number of trades. I do not consider this as evidence. It looks like they make around $20 per round after fees/commissions. i ask if these were limit orders and they claim they were. I ask if they use a must trade 1 tick past in their rules and he said they did (i.e price must cross limit). I don't really know if he knew what I'm talking about. I have an acquaintance who trades with them and is very satisfied and he said they used markets. I'm trying to get more clarification from the acquaintance.

    I do not scalp and want to hear from 2 types of traders

    A. Scalpers who trade ES
    B. Traders who have been in this room.

    I want to know if these results are possible with scalping. Also, if anyone has a real money track record over most recent 6 months of producing 5k average or better on the ES per month (scalping with a 5k account) then I will pay you to produce it. The stop must be less then or equal to 2 points and always used. Every month must be traded. This is what they claim to do. They claim best month was May where they made 22k on a 5k account.

    If you can't meet the requirements they claim then let me know if you come close, and I still may pay you. I would also consider to pay you for mentoring. I consider myself among the best in world at what I do. But, I don't scalp.

    I suspect that if you take the $20 profit and add in slippage, missed fills, etc that the real results will be break even or maybe even losing. To be fair, my acquaintance says he got the same fills but no longer used the scalping room. He hasn't answer my question if he ever achieved what they did.

    Anyway, I'm not just here to rip a vendor. I'm always trying to learn. So, if you were either a member in Levine's room or scalp the ES then I'm very interested to hear from you. I read the previous post here about Levine's program. But, I'm interested I most interested in testing these specific claims.

    Has anyone here used the room and taken every trade? How did it compare to the results they show?

  2. bone

    bone ET Sponsor

    I have no idea who this vendor is, but instead of sneaking around with the underhanded subterfuge why don't you just hire them directly instead of trying to bribe a client ? Are you that poorly capitalized ?

    If it is a system, it might be important to get the specific training for the system in terms of studies, rules, and procedures directly from the vendor who developed and supposedly tested / trades it - why risk getting incomplete "training" or possibly even mistaken or false information from a third party ?

    I know for me, I spend a great deal of time with clients on an individual basis not only on the entry setups with the studies, but also with the stop-loss and profit targets. It is a big deal, and each client has different background and skill sets - from my experience it takes a bit of effort on the vendor's part to make sure the client can become effective using the system.

    Finally, it might be possible that the vendor has very strict IP and NDA agreements with their clients - I know that the topic consumes about half of my four page contract I have with clients. Trading is a small universe, and word does eventually get around.
  3. piezoe


    Of course you can't succeed at this, as a retail trader anyway, the way they claim. If their claims were true, word would spread quickly, and everyone would be doing this!

    I noticed some time ago that the Thinkorswim paper trading platform had a very poor fill engine for trading the ES using what they called a DOM display, but which really wasn't. Their papertrade platform filled buys on the bid and sells on the ask, which is just the opposite of what happens most of the time in real trading. This essentially gives you a two tick ($25) advantage. I then did a little experiment to see how much I could make scalping the ES using the Thinkorswim papertrade platform. Even after their steep commissions it was like taking candy from a baby. But as they say on TV, "don't try this at home" (with real money). It is virtually impossible for a retail trader to scalp the ES for ticks and make a profit after expenses. But it should be noted that the definition of "scalping" is different for different folks. Some old guys consider scalping to be getting in between the bid and ask on a spread wide enough to allow it. (basically impossible for a retail trader) I consider scalping on the ES to be a trade making less than 1 point, i.e. trading for ticks, but i've seen some posts here on ES that suggest to me that others consider trading for a point or two to be scalping.
  4. Lucias


    Bone, you are a very nasty character. I'm not trying to bribe a client. I'm seeking extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims which is what anyone with half a brain does. The vendor was shared in my opening statement, Levine.

    I am asking about scalping the ES. I'm saying that I don't believe it is possible to generate these returns and if you are a scalper and making these returns then REGARDLESS of how you learned it then I'd be willing to both PAY you for statements and to PAY you to train me.

    There is nothing underhanded about this topic. This is a great opportunity for all the ELITE traders here to come out and show me hows its done.

    To be absolutely clear, if you scalp the ES and make that kind of return (or a similar future with a small/tiny 5k account) then I'm willing to both pay you for statements and pay you for training.

    To be absolutely clear, this topic is directed at 2 kinds of people:

    1) Those who have taken every or most trade in Levine's scalping room and can verify if the profit/loss they present is accurate. I want to know if you achieved the claimed results and your overall opinion.

    2) Anyone who reads this and scalps the ES and makes comparable returns.
  5. Lucias



    Thanks for your insightful post. I agree people talk about scalping meaning different things. They are claiming an average of $24 per trade out of a total of 207 trades per month with a max 2 point stop.

    I do a style of scalping but I'm shooting for 3-4 points minimum. I call these measured moves and this is about the minimum that I will trade for. It is not always a super active style either.

    I am skeptical like you. I am doubtful that it would be possible to do 5k per month even with 25k account.

    They actually claim over 114k in profits since last June scalping 1 to 3 contracts with only 5k account! Now they did have an abnormal best month ever (according to claims) of 20k. Take that out though, heck take that whole month how and we still get an average of $7700 per month. This would be a 10% return on the nominal value of the contract per month.
  6. cloudy


    I take it you're talking about Larry Levine? Sometimes asked to comment from his pit on CNBC and Bloomberg. I got his email spam ad too. A pit trader at the MERC offering the trading room and tours of the pit. I've read conflicting reviews..

    Isn't the ES a heavily traded S&P future? Scalping for 1 point or 4 ticks is feasible. Just have to have a consistent enough success rate, (60-70%)?

    There are a bunch of reviews on FPA of scalping systems for forex, but would probably pertain to futures as well.

    Piezoe, you exactly describe my own experience with TOS. Agreed that TOS papertrading scalping futures is a joke as it always fills. (But Think OnDemand may be more historically "realistic"?) And then live feels like you're trading against someone pulling teeth with you at the TOS offices. I sometimes put up concurrent 5min/1min charts of the ES up from MT4 or another platform side by side with TOS just to see how much the bars vary and try to catch obvious stop running discrepancies.
  7. There are no free lunches and damn few that are edible even when you pay. I am a trader who after a few years is starting to make small amounts. The weeks I do not earn my peanuts (and I mean really small amounts) I generally break even and am putting in one profitable month after another.

    Let's leave the money aside for a moment. I am using price action as a methodology (see Al Brooks), looking for two to four points on a single contract and learning. The learning curve is begining to work in my favor and I am learning more in a week than I did in a month just six months ago.

    Learn to trade. That is the asset you need to own. My thinking is once I have the skill one contract becomes two and then three. I hope to be trading two contracts by Thanksgiving and three early in 2012. It is only when you own the skill that you can comfortable increase your size. It is all about learning as step one and increasing size in a measured way.

    Right now I have more money than skill. I am working toward having the skill so I can employ the capital wisely without too much leverage.

    Good luck!
  8. From what Ive seen all those vendors are NOT as good as they say they are(they manipulate their win/loss info many different ways without ppl noticing) and they pitch their services like used car salesman.

    If it sounds too good to be usually is.

    People that subscribe to vendor garbage are doing themselves a disservice by keeping themselves from applying hard work ethic and learning the importance of fundamentals and technicals as a system that can be highly optimized to form a profitable system that suits their trading style. Of course the exception to these services are ppl like Bone who are veterans in the business and don't need to use any kind of used car salesman tactics to attain business.
  9. Lucias


    Also, I fail to mention I have already considered that I've great success in the markets. I have 2 of the top ranked futures systems at C2 over 6 months old (one discretionary and one systematic).

    I do consider myself among the best at what I do and my results, as far as I can quantify them against verifiable evidence, support my beliefs. However, I am not a scalper, and I'm not trading for a living.

    Speaking of which, Is anyone here scalping the ES for a living?

    As for Bone, all I have seen is he is foul mouthed and of bad taste. He doesn't even share his name. If people here are happy with services: that' great. I've not seen any evidence for what he claims though.. heck what does he claim? He doesn't share his name, he doesn't share his performance, and many of the statements he makes to show "he's in the know" have been flat out false. It is funny to read for those who of us who know a little. When asked basic questions about this strategy, he blew his top. Come to think of it, I don't even care!!!

    So, let's keep this on TOPIC which is about yes Larry Levin and his program and about SCALPING futures.

    For you guys using TOS and complaining about the fills, many platforms do have realistic to semi-realistic fill capability. This can be done by using a combination of volume and time to fill estimates. A simpler method is just to make sure price crosses the price, i.e price must cross. Most backtesting platforms have such capability. You want to look at Ninjatrader which has some different simulation settings.
  10. Lucias


    Cloudy, wrote

    Isn't the ES a heavily traded S&P future? Scalping for 1 point or 4 ticks is feasible. Just have to have a consistent enough success rate, (60-70%)?

    There are 2-3 primary factors that work against the scalper using tight stops:

    Expense Ratio As Profit
    1 point in ES is $50
    If we take $8 per round the we find that 16% of the profit is payed in commission. This doesn't include slippage. If we count 1 tick slippage then we find our expenses eat roughly 50% of our profitable trades.

    4 point in ES is $200
    The same $8 commission is now only 4% of our profits.

    Scalper ideally want the highest tick value to the commission.

    The tight stops inherently produce more losses. Because the scalper is only making small profits, he must place more trades which brings to final factor working against the scalper:

    The scalper is required to place many more trades per day then a swing or day swing trader. This means he is more likely to be trading the randomness which is a huge loss.

    The scalper has to his advantage:

    More opportunities
    Greater ability to leverage
    Less market exposure
    #10     Jul 9, 2011