"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by Buy1Sell2, Oct 18, 2006.

Do you scale out of positions?

  1. I always scale out

    113 vote(s)
    14.1%
  2. I scale out most of the time

    228 vote(s)
    28.5%
  3. Most of the time, I do not scale out

    189 vote(s)
    23.6%
  4. I never scale out

    270 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    While you would let the rest ride, I would be letting the whole trade ride. If my system tells me that it goes to 6 points 50 percent of the time, there is no sense getting out of any at 2 pts especially if the stop has been moved to breakeven.
     
    #421     Oct 27, 2006
  2. romik

    romik

    Hypothetically speaking, you have 10 2 lot trades running to 2 point target ($2000) and the rest can be anything ie average for the remainder can be +4 points or + 5 or +2 or +7, etc.

    And once the threshold of the average +2 points for remaining position is broken, scaling starts beating "all out" PnL.
     
    #422     Oct 27, 2006
  3. volente_00

    volente_00



    Because 80-85% of the time I can get the sure 2 points multiple times per day. On a 6 point range day you will get nothing with that system.
     
    #423     Oct 27, 2006
  4. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    If the percentage of winners running beyond your profit target is great enough , then it would be an inferior system. If your initial profit target is where you have the best expectancy of maturity, then the whole position should be exited there and not gambled on beyond the profit target. If the run past the intial target is really where you should be exiting the position , then certainly scaling out is inferior. I would recommend finding at least a 3 to 1 Reward/Risk system. As defined by wareco in the ES Journal, you would only have to be right about 31% of the time to be profitable, while a 1 to 1 is about 62% (using commissions of .5 ES pts).
     
    #424     Oct 27, 2006
  5. Not true. If you scale out %90 of your trade at your target price and let %10 ride, where is the emphasis?

    TNG
     
    #425     Oct 27, 2006
  6. B1S2: If I understand you right, you are saying one or more of the following

    1. Position sizing should always be independent of market chararacteristics,
    2. Attractiveness of a trade does not change once it is entered, and remains at the pre-determined level
    3. Edge is derived only from entry and exit rules/ levels

    Under any or all of the above assumptions, i can see your argument about all-or-nothing exits are valid. (then there is the issue of scale-in and the asymmetry of logic when it comes to scale out)

    Since i disagree with all the three assumptions above, IMO scaling out can be a valid part of a system.
     
    #426     Oct 27, 2006
  7. This is the crux of the problem. He's defining scaling out as selling on the way to the profit target, and we are defining it as trying to capture moves after the target.

    TNG
     
    #427     Oct 27, 2006
  8. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    What is the percentage of the trades that are profitable past the 2 points. Once you know that, then a decision can be made as to whether or not the whole position should be exited there instead of really at the 2 pts. If the trades going past have a low enough winning percentage, it would make no sense to let the rest ride. If the percentage is high enough, then the whole position should be allowed to ride. Every trader must do their homework on their individual system to determine their entries and exits. Once that is developed properly, it makes no sense whatsoever to scale out.
     
    #428     Oct 27, 2006
  9. volente_00

    volente_00


    Problem is your trade does not come up nearly as often with that criteria. So would you rather get 2 points 5 times a week or wait for 10 points once a month ? Do you think it is just coincidence that the best S&P traders in the world focus on small points and large size ?
    3 to1 is whole different subject. How do you think one's psychology handles having that many losing trades even if the one winner offsets the losses ?
     
    #429     Oct 27, 2006
  10. volente_00

    volente_00

    It's not about the % rate, it is about how many points it averages. It can only be 30% but if it goes on to capture just 1 10 point move it becomes a viable strategy.
     
    #430     Oct 27, 2006