"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by Buy1Sell2, Oct 18, 2006.

Do you scale out of positions?

  1. I always scale out

    113 vote(s)
    14.1%
  2. I scale out most of the time

    228 vote(s)
    28.5%
  3. Most of the time, I do not scale out

    189 vote(s)
    23.6%
  4. I never scale out

    270 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. frugi

    frugi

    In your example you fail to take account of the probability of reaching 4.5 points but not reaching 9.

    The scale out method will bank profit in this scenario (0.75 pts/lot) while the classic method will lose money.
     
    #401     Oct 27, 2006
  2. It makes sense if you expect the market conditions to change; it makes sense if you define the market as a fluid set of possibilities; it makes sense if you consider the market complex, as opposed to simple as you keep reminding us.

    How do you even begin to adjust your targets, if you find them deficient? By the time you make a shift, the market will adjust again. My point is, the math does lie (as you present it), sorry.
     
    #402     Oct 27, 2006
  3. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    50 % winning percentage 4 ES Contracts 20 trades 2 pt target 2 pt loss

    1st example without scaling out

    10 winners 2X(4 Contracts) = $80 pts ($4000)
    10 losers 2X(4Contracts) = $80 pts (-$4000)
    Net profit 0 before commissions


    2nd example with scaling out half at 1 pt
    5 winners 2X(4 Contracts) =40 pts ($2000)
    5 winners 1X(4 Contracts) =20 pts($1000)
    10 losers 2X(4 Contracts) = -80 pts (-$4000)
    Net loss before commissions=-$1000
     
    #403     Oct 27, 2006
  4. volente_00

    volente_00

    Then why do you list them as both having the same stop loss amount in your example ?
     
    #404     Oct 27, 2006
  5. volente_00

    volente_00


    2nd example can't lose on 4 contracts if they scaled out and only have 2 remaining. The two traders can not have the same loss amount total if one scales out.
     
    #405     Oct 27, 2006
  6. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Because even though the total dollar stop loss would be different when you scale out, a person employing the breakeven strategy would be moving their stop up to breakeven as well when they didn't scale out while giving themselves the opportunity for more profit. Once the trade moves in your direction, I have no problem using a trailing stop, but the profit target remains intact and shoule be allowed to be reached. You are making ny case by leaps and bounds and it started with you saying that the scale out trader needs a higher winning percentage to be as profitable as the non scaler.
     
    #406     Oct 27, 2006
  7. When you calculate odds on a trade there's more than just the % chance of it hitting your profit target. What's the % time there's a signifigant % move after your target? It makes sense (depending on your system) to leave a small portion of the trade on to capture a very large move that happens a small % of the time.

    Furthermore, you consitently deny that this has anything to do with profit targets, but in your rebuttal you keep say "better homework would define a better maturity area"??? I'm a little dense sometimes, but isn't that the same thing?

    TNG
     
    #407     Oct 27, 2006
  8. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Also, can't lose when the non scaler moves his stop up tp breakeven as well. Thanks Vol very much for your input today. It has helped enormously. And I mean this in a very nice way. :)
     
    #408     Oct 27, 2006
  9. volente_00

    volente_00



    Your numbers are flawed. You can not have the same loss. The case of the scale out trader is that his loss will be half as much as the other trader because he only has half the position left to lose on. True he might not gain as much profit but his loss amount will be far less to offset that.
    The case is that if you use scaling out you end up being a higher % trader because you have a higher probability to profit on every trade due to reduced risk.
     
    #409     Oct 27, 2006
  10. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    What's the percentage that it goes beyong maturity. If it's high , you would want to raise your maturity target. With regard to the profit targets, what I am saying is that it doesn't matter what your profit target is, it could be a bad one with 5 % expectancy, but you'd still do better(lose less) over time by not scaling out. :)
     
    #410     Oct 27, 2006