"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by Buy1Sell2, Oct 18, 2006.

Do you scale out of positions?

  1. I always scale out

    113 vote(s)
    14.1%
  2. I scale out most of the time

    228 vote(s)
    28.5%
  3. Most of the time, I do not scale out

    189 vote(s)
    23.6%
  4. I never scale out

    270 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. Snail oil --- Yes! :D
     
    #211     Oct 23, 2006
  2. Cutten

    Cutten

    We are well aware that you would exit all at once - you have told us that plenty of times, and there is no value in repeating it. What we want to know is *why* you would exit fully, when retaining a moderate position would still prove profitable? Why exactly do you want to give up a profitable position, and prefer to park cash in t-bills?

    But instead of giving us an honest answer, you've repeatedly tried to evade the question. First you said it was "obvious common sense" to exit wholly. When countered with reasons why it might be common sense, and profitable, to maintain a smaller position, you tell us you have a plane to test.

    These are classic responses of an evasive politician who doesn't have anything to justify himself, but just wishes to avoid being put on the spot or caught out. Admit it - you don't actually have any logical reason for your belief, and when this is clearly pointed out to you, you go into denial mode and try to change the subject.

    Such a mentality is not typically successful in the markets. In addition, the successful traders I have encountered generally do not make a big point of bragging about their profits & lifestyle when debating trading tactics, and certainly don't use it as an attempt to avoid being cornered in a debate. You are not only illogical and evasive (two terrible traits for trading), but you actually practise the very scaling behaviour which you profess to condemn.

    I call BS. I would be highly surprised if you were in fact a profitable trader. I think it's much more likely that you are a fake and a liar.
     
    #212     Oct 23, 2006
  3. romik

    romik

    Cutten, you need to calm down :) B1's method of 'all out' is not suitable to a lot of traders for various reasons especially intraday based, one of them is a trader's ability to find a good entry point, though uncertainty about where to exit, therefore a scale out is being used, partial closure warrants locked profits with exit at entry, etc. B1 is simply saying that a strategy that halves a potential profit though keeps a loss at 100% position size is a flawed "inferior" way to trade. I both agree and disagree with his statement. it's certainly is not an easy debate as all discussions have to be relative to a specific situation, not to multiple/different methodologies. What B1 does, he does very well, intraday high leveraged position trades would be very difficult to achieve using 'all out' method, unless profit target is relatively tight and/or trailing stop used. IMHO.
     
    #213     Oct 23, 2006
    Buy1Sell2 likes this.
  4. fhl

    fhl

    I'm going to scale out of my reading of this thread, and only read the posters who have usefull things to say. :)
     
    #214     Oct 23, 2006
  5. Actually, I think that B1S2 wants you to stop reading his posts all at once. Any other decision would clearly be inferior.
     
    #215     Oct 23, 2006
  6. romik

    romik

    You guys should take it easy on B1, he is one trader that brings more quality info than 90% of ET 50000+ members. Anybody that has followed his posts would agree. Just because there is no agreement on this issue does not justify inappropriate personal branding.
     
    #216     Oct 23, 2006
  7. zdreg

    zdreg

    this poll on scaling as well as most polls on ET might have given different results if it was limited to traders with incomes 0f 100K/yr. for the last 2+yrs.
     
    #217     Oct 23, 2006
  8. Since b1s2 advocates trading the longer term, risking 2% on any given trade idea -- it's really no wonder that he doesn't condone scaling, there's basically no room for it. When trading such long time frames, you will need to have stops that are quite wide, and to limit your losses to 2% it means your position size relative to your account size will be much smaller than a shorter-term trader. To let go of a good trade even partially prematurely is very costly in this scenario.

    What he is missing here in his personal disdain for short-term trading is that one can take much larger positions with tigher stops on the shorter time frame; for every 1 contract b1s2 takes, the shorter-term trader given the same size account will probably be comfortable with 5. What we've been trying to convince him of is that if both traders decide to take positions at the same time in the same direction, the shorter-term trader always has the option of holding for a longer term position, by scaling out of his "short-term" size, and reducing into a position size more commensurate for a longer term trade -- thus, in this case, "scaling out" helps keep him in the position longer, and it's a "given" who makes more money here.

    It might just be a matter of perspective for when scaling is appropriate, but compared to the longer-term trader who cannot handle the shorter-term as well and must stick to that smaller position size to maintain his 2% loss limit -- well, it's quite obvious what is actually the inferior case here. So consider yourself right for your own trading purposes, but if you're going to use the label "inferior" on anything, you might want to start with your own forehead.
     
    #218     Oct 23, 2006
  9. Dogma is dogma, regardless of it source or presumed quality.
     
    #219     Oct 23, 2006
  10. jem

    jem

    made this thread reading worth my time this morning and kudos to your straight man.
     
    #220     Oct 23, 2006