"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by Buy1Sell2, Oct 18, 2006.

Do you scale out of positions?

  1. I always scale out

    113 vote(s)
    14.1%
  2. I scale out most of the time

    228 vote(s)
    28.5%
  3. Most of the time, I do not scale out

    189 vote(s)
    23.6%
  4. I never scale out

    270 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. romik

    romik

    I still think scaling out MAY be superior at times. Another example:

    Going for 10 points using 2 lots, 1 lot scaled out after +2, 1 lot scaled +10 or close at entry for b/e and non-scale out goes for 10 points and also closes b/e if price fails to run and returns to entry.

    1st Case:

    Scale out:

    1 lot x 2pts x $50 x 5 times = $500
    1 lot x 0pts x 4 times = $0
    1 lot x 10 pts x $50 x 1 time = $500
    Total: $1000


    Non-scale out:

    2 lots x 10 pts x $50 x 1 time = $1000
    2 lots x 0pts x 4 times = $0
    Total: $1000

    EVEN OUTCOME

    2nd Case:

    Scale out

    1 lot x 2pts x $50 x 10 times = $1000
    1 lot x 0pts x 9 times = $0
    1 lot x 10pts x $50 x 1 time = $500
    Total: $1500

    Non-Scale out:

    2 lots x 10pts x $50 x 1 time = $1000
    2 lots x 0pts x 9 times = $0
    Total: $1000

    SCALE OUT OUTPERFORMS

    3rd Case:

    Scale out

    1 lot x 2pts x $50 x 5 times = $500
    1 lot x 0pts x 3 times = $0
    1 lot x 10 pts x $50 x 2 time = $1000
    Total: $1500

    Non-Scale out:

    2 lots x 10pts x $50 x 2 times =$2000
    2 lots x 0pts x 3 times=0
    Total: $2000

    NON-SCALE OUT OUTPERFORMS

    Conclusion:

    Everything is dependent upon different variables including randomness of future price action. Sometimes scale outperforms, sometimes non-scale out outperforms and at times they would be even. Therefore, it is impossible to be certain which would outperform, perhaps just by making hypothetical examples like the ones above.
     
    #1591     Oct 16, 2015
  2. romik

    romik

    There are many other scenarios which can support either strategy, especially when stops come into play.
     
    #1592     Oct 16, 2015
  3. romik

    romik

    'Scaling in' can be superior to 'all in' too, depending on strategy used. Example would be starting with 1 contract and ONLY adding to winning trades another 1 contract whenever price increases (if long) by 1 point, after +8 points you would have 8 contracts on with different gains opposed to the 10 contracts when 'all in'. Clearly 'all in' is ahead here. But here is the catch. When you are all in your stop would be -2 points x10 contracts, whereas 'scale in' strategy would be down -1.5 points x 2 contracts. That way you greatly reduce risk when wrong, yet still beat 'all in' strategy on both sides - risk management and total gains generated.
     
    #1593     Nov 7, 2015
  4. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Doesn't make sense---- If adding contracts, they could all still go against you and have larger losses per contract.
     
    #1594     Feb 18, 2016
  5. Handle123

    Handle123

    I think it one concentrates on lowering losing percentages, then more prudent to average down and this way you can risk half as much and target 50% more on this position. Whereas adding as market becomes profitable is increasing risk if based on charting support/resistance and targeting less, never made any sense to me
     
    #1595     Feb 18, 2016
    Buy1Sell2 likes this.
  6. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Both are sub-par. Both will having you missing the full move when you are right.
     
    #1596     Feb 18, 2016
    murray t turtle likes this.
  7. Handle123

    Handle123

    Well I been averaging down past three years, I do not recommend others to do so as losing trades are multiplied, but you do enough back testing, numbers show it is well worth it. BUT you have to be able to trade like a robot, like no mistakes and don't bet the farm. And no way I am going to miss the full move as I have entered where I am supposed to enter on original entries, but also enter at -1,-2,-3,-5. Really comes down to how much back testing one does and how far back one does and not a couple months or years. Only time I have a target is very long term trading of 5/10k as I might get couple of them when markets swing to go other way to make new highs/lows, might as well as take something out, but day trading risk to reward is often inverse and getting out early makes little sense unless larger target is so large enough to make numbers right for all the times it doesn't work when smaller target is best.
     
    #1597     Feb 18, 2016
  8. K-Pia

    K-Pia

    Doesn't it add the benefit to make someone convex ?
    You lose little against adversity and win a maximum while fortunate.
     
    #1598     May 3, 2016
    murray t turtle likes this.
  9. Xela

    Xela

    Authors like Van Tharp, Tushar Chande and others certainly seem anxious to explain that scaling out without having scaled in is, overall, sub-optimal trade-management (and it's not difficult to see why, arithmetically). I prefer to add to winning positions, not that that's got anything to do with the price of bouillabaisse.

    I've never tried (or fancied) averaging down, myself. I need my trades to move in my favor pretty quickly, really, otherwise my reason for entry is probably invalid and I don't want to be in them. But I see that other methods might suit people with very different trading styles from mine.

    Apparently there's 160 pages of this thread - I won't pretend to have read all of it, before replying. So I'm probably only repeating comments made earlier on (though I'll bet nobody else specifically mentioned bouillabaisse).
     
    #1599     May 3, 2016
    K-Pia likes this.
  10. %%
    Most likely commenting on adding+ scale out.
    That can be true. Dr Tharp tends to be right....
    But as a practical matter, a good trend has much more than one excellent entry + exit point.
    As a practical matter, no one knows the exact bottom except in hindsight; bottoms takes more than one candle, [except in hindsight; no replies needed for the elite that says he always picks the bottom-LOL]

    BUT that is one area- dont be real slow about some exits.............., on an old, old trend LOL
     
    #1600     May 5, 2016
    K-Pia likes this.