"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by Buy1Sell2, Oct 18, 2006.

Do you scale out of positions?

  1. I always scale out

    113 vote(s)
    14.1%
  2. I scale out most of the time

    228 vote(s)
    28.5%
  3. Most of the time, I do not scale out

    189 vote(s)
    23.6%
  4. I never scale out

    270 vote(s)
    33.8%
  1. B1S1, your assumption doesn't make sense to me. The win/loss ratio when scaling out should be higher compared to an "all out" approach. You could get to 4.5 pt target but not to the 9 pt target. The scale out would be a profitable trade versus a losing trade using the "all out" approach.
     
    #1231     Jun 2, 2009
  2. it doesn't make any sense because Ishmael can't do simple math.

    the results are the same, assuming the variables are the same.

    but scaling out is multiple trades at different times, so the results could vary, because as we all know, prices can change at any time.

    but it was a good try.
     
    #1232     Jun 2, 2009
  3. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Thanks for the question. The answer is that if the winning percentage was high enough on the 4.5 target, you would take all off at 4.5 instead of scaling out and letting some run to 9 or having those contracts give back profits.
     
    #1233     Jun 2, 2009
  4. B1S1, the point is that whatever the win/loss ratio is when scaling out, it would be even lower for an "all out" approach assuming everything else being equal.
     
    #1234     Jun 2, 2009
  5. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Now, the example of the trader who is using a losing system:

    Four ES Contracts 90% win ratio all in/all out versus
    Four ES Contracts 90% win ratio scaling out at half target.

    1 pt target 10 pt initial stop loss

    1st example with 20 trades
    18 winners for 1 X (4 conracts) = 72 pts ($3600)
    2 losers for 10 X (4 contracts) = -80 pts (-$4000)
    Net loss $-400


    2nd example with 20 trades
    18 winners for 1 X(2 Contracts)=36 pts ($1800)
    18 winners for .5 X(2 Contracts)=18 pts ($900)
    2 Losers for 10 X(4 Contracts) =-80 pts (-$4000)
    Net profit $-1300

    As you can see, even the trader who employs a losing system will lose less by not scaling out. --Ishmael
    :)
     
    #1235     Jun 2, 2009
  6. i'm too busy trading to check his math.

     
    #1236     Jun 2, 2009
  7. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    Not necessarily. The winning percentage could be exactly the same. Perhaps the trade that runs to 9 pts 50% of the time also runs to 4.5 pts only 50% of the time. You see, there is no guarantee that scaling will give you a higher winning percentage. It is however, more likely that it will and that strokes the ego of the scaler. As I have shown, it makes better sense to trade all in all out in all circumstances, even if you are a person that cannot define the market optimal exit. --Ishmael:)
     
    #1237     Jun 2, 2009
  8. and since no one can define the optimal exit point, then...? come one, ishmael, you can say it.
     
    #1238     Jun 2, 2009
  9. Buy1Sell2

    Buy1Sell2

    A good exercise that will help you understand the premise better, would be for you to calculate and report what the winning percentage would have to be at the 4.5 pt target to make scaling out a better profit. Then, calculate what all in , all out would do at the 4.5 target with that winning percentage.--Ishmael:)
     
    #1239     Jun 2, 2009
  10. It's possible, but highly unlikely. To make your point about scaling out you really need to have more real-world assumptions. Seriously, if you're basing your entire argument that the winning percentage when scaling out is the same as taking off your entire position, then your argument is weak. I'm not trying to be insulting, just critiquing your logic.
     
    #1240     Jun 2, 2009