Russia & Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by UsualName, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. easymon1

    easymon1

    Are you a US citizen? How many generations?
     
    #7581     Sep 21, 2022
  2. Those are all important questions and most of it depends on how things shape up in the next few months.

    In general, I favor actions that allow for Russia to have a pathway back to the civilized world and that our messaging and actions help the Russian people to realize that they, we, and the world have a Putin problem. I know you have to swallow hard and bite on a glove to do it but we do not want to feed into Putin's strategy at home which is to argue that the real problem is that the west is trying to wipe Russia off the map and that he is just taking actions to stop them and defend Mother Russia.

    Some of this is real time of course. He has just started this mobilization fiasco which will create considerable opposition on the homefront. I would not- right now- want to do anything that convinced the people that Putin is right- such as by booting them out of the UN or castrating them there. I would also not want to give him a chance to show his people that the west is actually the ones who are threatening a nuclear attack. He would use that to his advantage bigtime. We should be in a state of max readiness. I just dont want to mix a lot of counterthreats in with it. A statement of our readiness is sufficient.

    Right now, Putin's plan is to have fake elections, and then declare that that is now Russian territory and any attack on them is an attack on Russia, and an attack on Russia will result in the use of nuclear weapons if needed. Unfortunately, all of this depends on how the fight for Kherson goes. Ukraine needs to kill a lot of Russians- as they have done already- in order to keep the Russians open to various settlement options. If they take Kherson and then are free to finish off back up in Luhansk and Donetsk etc without touching off a nuclear war or being defeated then that just continues to limit Russian bargaining power. Putin does not care about the dead Russians. With mobilization the folks and villages back home will care more. Moscow and St. Petersburg too.

    Probably need at least another six to eight months to sort some of this out. We have to see and Putin has to see whether Europe caves in the dead of winter as well. I hope this mobilization thing backfires on him and gives the west a chance to capitalize on low morale back home in the same way that it is benefitting from low morale at the front.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
    #7582     Sep 21, 2022
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  3. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    Vlad-look-weak.jpg
     
    #7583     Sep 21, 2022
  4. easymon1

    easymon1

    Yawn.
     
    #7584     Sep 21, 2022
  5. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    A thread on why Putin's mobilization of 300,000 men will be a flop from a training perspective.

     
    #7585     Sep 21, 2022
    Atlantic and Sprout like this.
  6. 4the generation US citizen. Want to talk about how the US stole land from native Americans? How we strong armed Mexico into land concessions? How we took advantage of Russia with Alaska? How about Hawaii or Puerto Rico? Excuse me for leaving a few out.

    Based on the above, is it reasonable to consider time period, known as the Colonial Period versus the Modern Era before making comparisons between previous Colonialism of major powers at the time and current Russian Colonialism? Does earlier US history justify the abandonment of the current US obligations and commitment to Ukraine? Should it be considered that Ukraine made a bold concession to give up their WMDs in exchange for a promise of security by Russia and the United States that Russia violated twice with their subsequent invasions? When was the United Nations formed and standards of International law generally agreed to? What other purposes does the United Nations serve? Should consistent, flagrant violators of international laws and human rights be expelled and appropriate remedies taken such as sanctions and peacekeeping forces?
     
    #7586     Sep 21, 2022
  7. If Putin can dictate the terms of the war, he has already won. If Putin can attack a country at will and if Russia is counterattacked that justifies the utilization of WMDs in Putin’s mind, then Putin can use that threat in other ways, effectively denying the sovereignty of world members without even having to invade. If we can ever envision making a stand against Putins WMD threats, is it not better now than later? What do you think other rogue leaders with WMDs will think? How about tribes with biological weapons? We must be willing to make a stand, even if we may get hurt. It is in everyone’s long term best interest, including Russia’s that our policy regarding our defense pacts are unambiguous: We will uphold our commitments with other countries like the attack is directly on us. This is how to form strong international relationships, with current allies and future allies.

    Russia recently attacked a dam iin Ukraine, a significant if not critical, economic target. Is it not reasonable to respond in kind? To establish that Russia’s decision to destroy Ukraine’s economic targets is effectively a decision to destroy an economic target of their own?

    Russia allegedly has been mutilating the genitalia of Ukrainian soldiers. If so, any potential prisoner exchange becomes problematic as it seems inequitable to exchange intact Russian soldiers for disabled Ukrainians. Turnabout is fair play. Again if one side gains an advantage by breaking rules, why should we handicap ourselves by following them?

    As discussed before, it is possible that a third party may try to instigate an escalatory incident between Russia and Ukraine and or the West, effectively denying the other parties control over their own fate. In addition, unsanctioned actions are possible by either side, potentially leading to the same result. War is dangerous and less manageable than participants would like to believe. That said, it seems we should strongly consider Zelensky’s request for longer range missiles. Risky, yes. But, so is not following up when things are going in Ukraine’s way by allowing Russia to renew their attack in earnest with greater numbers.

    Again, if we are going to honestly fulfill our obligation to Ukraine, we need to make a stand. Not a stand later when we hope Putin is in a better mood, but now, while things are going our way. As far as Russia using WMDs, well we have them too, if Putin really wants to go there.
     
    #7587     Sep 21, 2022
  8. terr

    terr

    This release of Azov heroes is an amazing propaganda coup for Ukraine, *especially* coming in one day after Putin's incredibly unpopular mobilization decree.

    I mean... This is like a textbook example of a propaganda coup playing against a propaganda failure on the other side. It will be taught everywhere for the years to come.
     
    #7588     Sep 22, 2022
  9. virtusa

    virtusa

    This is what the Putin clan is doing:


    And this is what the population thinks about Putin and the war:


    Reaction from Papa Peskov:
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
    #7589     Sep 22, 2022
  10. virtusa

    virtusa

    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
    #7590     Sep 22, 2022