Russia & Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by UsualName, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Bugenhagen

    Bugenhagen

    I was thinking recently they are basically Canada. 90 percent of their population lined up along their border.

    Yes, I unselected that last few words of my paste as in the moment I wanted to look more into Waters' thoughts. He has redeemed a little but I don't think much of him saying the west was wrong not saying as that US politician did, if you are going to be raped, why not just lie back and enjoy it.

    Old men and foolishness.

    At least he has long contributed to notions of peace and not a life long arsehole like Clapton reminded us of his own character rather painfully during the pandemic.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/roger-waters-the-gunners-dream-video-1115930/

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
    #3531     Apr 8, 2022
  2. I already provided evidence of this from the national archives in the US, not everything has to go down on paper.
     
    #3532     Apr 8, 2022
  3. terr

    terr

    ROTFLMAO. "Promises" between countries definitely do. Otherwise they are worth the paper they're written on.
     
    #3533     Apr 8, 2022
  4. virtusa

    virtusa

    Russia did not respect at all what was effectively put on paper and signed by the Russian President Yeltsin, and also by Lavrov. Here under a small part of it. The full document is added as attachment so that you can check it. The important parts are marked yellow in the pdf.


    Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s
    Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
    Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
    Northern Ireland and the United States of America
    ,

    Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,
    Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
    Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the cold war, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,

    Confirm the following:

    1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
    Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to
    Ukraine,
    in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

    2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain andNorthern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

    3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
    Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to
    Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

    4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain andNorthern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;

    5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
    Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclearweapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

    6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britainand Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.

    This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

    Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English and Russian languages.

    -------------------------------------------

    For decades Russia is infiltrating and trying to take over Ukraine again. So their signature is worth nothing. They broke every condition they agreed with in this document. They even installed Yanukovich who was a puppet listening to Putin. So basically Ukraine was already taken over by Russia. Which is completelly the opposite of what was agreed and signed.
    All this is on paper but has no value if signed by Russians.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
    #3534     Apr 8, 2022
    BeautifulStranger and Bugenhagen like this.
  5. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Wasn’t Cuba a Sovereign nation who was willing to let their Russian friend use some of Cuba’s land for a missile base? How did the United States react?

    Some would argue the Cuban Missile Crisis establishes precedent in certain international situations that seems reasonably applicable to the Russian Ukrainian War. Remember the Bay of Pigs invasion by the US against Cuba? Actions can have consequences. The relative disparity between US and Russian nuclear forces was much greater then than it is now. Quantitatively, they have superior numbers of warheads, although in war, surprises on both sides are inevitable.

    Is it not best for all of us that a country, especially a country with lots of WMDs, have a way of communicating its red line?

    Would you agree the one thing politicians must get right is not to get us into a global conflict if it can be reasonably avoided?

    Think about the risk to reward of NATO taking an excessively hard line against Russia. Think about the greater potential to misread the intentions of the other side as we escalate. For example, even if our plan is to simply defend Ukraine and offer NATO membership to them? Putin will likely see such action as a critically dangerous continuation of NATO expansion.
    Psychologically, it is extremely hard for one expecting more to accept getting less, especially much less. It is very difficult to admit a profound mistake, especially as a global public figure who highly values prestige. Further, while NATO my feel comfortable with their offensive capabilities, defensively NATO is very underprepared for a major war. As it is, the global supply chain is a mess. All because of “Just” a virus of moderate concern?

    It seems to me the most viable course of action is to give Putin a face saving exit ramp. As far has demonizing Putin for bombing civilians, the US, for example, did drop two atomic bombs on civilian populations of major cities in Japan during WWII.

    From a practical point of view, we need to be mindful of history, precedent, risk to reward, and basic obligation of government to the people of keeping us out of a unnecessary global war.
     
    #3535     Apr 8, 2022
  6. Bugenhagen

    Bugenhagen

    Any of those overpasses you go under in your truck could be an opportunity for something new and surprising to enter your brain.

    Just speed up and pull right.
     
    #3536     Apr 8, 2022
  7. I have covered the Cuban Missile Crisis faux analogy at length in previous posts.

    I can only refer you to those, at least during trade hours. If you disagree with the points there, I could say more, again.
     
    #3537     Apr 8, 2022
  8. That all you got? Some content, please. Anything supported by facts or at least well reasoned would be appreciated.
     
    #3538     Apr 8, 2022
  9. terr

    terr

    By blockading it. Did the US invade?
    No, I don't. I remember a bunch of Cuban expats trying to land in Bay of Pigs and take over Cuba. With US ships standing off in the distance and doing nothing while they were slaughtered. Is that what you're referring to?
     
    #3539     Apr 8, 2022
  10. Yes. Look up “Bay of Pigs”, the failed US sponsored amphibious assault on Cuba.

    From wikipedia.org:

    The Bay of Pigs Invasion (Spanish: invasión de bahía de Cochinos; sometimes called invasión de playa Girón or batalla de Girón, after the Playa Girón) was a failed landing operation on the southwestern coast of Cuba in 1961 by Cuban exiles who opposed Fidel Castro's Cuban Revolution, covertly financed and directed by the U.S. government. The operation took place at the height of the Cold War, and its failure led to major shifts in international relations among Cuba, the United States, and the Soviet Union.

    The above is just a summary. The full article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
     
    #3540     Apr 8, 2022