Ah, so the real reason for your strong opposition to the comparison is not that it makes the US government to be hypocritical, but that it implies Israel is a wrongdoer. No, the real reason was the fact that the wars had nothing in common and your comparison was therefore invalid, absurd and pathetic. Jewish homeland means squat to me. Thanks for your honesty. I am not surprised though. So if you're accusing me of advocating for a none arab-frei Israel, you are absolutely right. 20% of Israeli citizens are arabs. 0% of Gaza, West Bank, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi .... citizens are jews. If you are accusing me of advocating for the removal of Jews I am accusing you of advocating for the removal of the only jewish state on the planet. Whether you call it a one state solution or the right of return is irrelevant as the end result will still be 24 arab states and zero jewish states. That you don't care about religious and ethnic states is also irrelevant as the rest of the planet does care about their ethnic and religious roots. We have an Italian state, a German state, a Japanese state, two Korean states 23 Arab states, 100 muslim states... None of those states is about to give up their religious or ethnic identity. 95% of the states on the planet are ethnic, religious or both, why don't you deal with them first instead of limiting your <del>struggle</del> jihad to the only Jewish state on the planet. You suggested that having Denmark under us and Iceland to the west should somehow make us feel safe from the Russians. You completely misunderstood my point. I said that it's easy to be a hero when you're surrounded by monsters like Sweden and Denmark. Unfortunately when your next door neighbor is muscle-flexing imperialist Russia or when you're squeezed between Syria, Egypt, Hezbollah and Hamas your attitude tends to be a tad different and a lot more realistic.
No more than Christian purity means anything to me in Norway, or Islamic purity means to me in Saudi Arabia. It wouldn't bother me at all if half my country converted to atheism (which they have), or Judaism for that matter. Nor would it bother me if half my country would be of none-Norwegian ethnicities in 2050 (this is projected). It's not the governments business what people believe in, and it's certainly not their business who the peoples ancestors are. But I wouldn't expect a religious fundamentalist like you to understand this. I condemn them just as much for every Jew they threw out. But the current conflict is not between Israel and the Arab world as a whole any longer; if the Arab world leaders where united behind the Palestinians, your gasoline would be a bit more expensive. The current conflict is between those who lived there and those who live there, between those who had the land and those who have land. I'm not talking about anybody giving up their religious identity, nor their ethnic identity. None of this has got anything to do with what I said, if there where a 100 or even a thousand Arab states, it would still not make any difference. The current conflict of today, as said, is between those who used to live on the land and those who now live on the land. That's the only real issue. This obviously brings us back to the history - to whether the land was empty wasteland or populated before Zionism came along, and to who this population was. You have made some claims that changes the ethnicity of millions of people and basically deletes their heritage. If your claims are true, I would agree with you that Palestinians have no right to demand the return. If you can provide the conclusive evidence you surely must have, I assure you I will fold. However, if it turns out this was just a lie so you could make Israel look better, you will have revealed yourself as no better than those who deny the holocaust in order to make Nazis look better. Here are the claims that need documentation: -Most of the land was unpopulated desert -The jews migrated to the area in accordance with the law of the land at the time and with the permission of local authorities -The arabs were also migrating to the area during the same timeframe and in equal numbers -At the time of the partition the area was populated by arabs and jews legally residing there and the partition was therefore the only viable solution The conclusion of these points is that Palestinians are a myth, that they're actually Egyptians, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians who had no more ties to the land and no more history in the land than the immigrating European Jews, right? Bring forth the evidence! I see. Well, let me put it this way; If Russia had a beef with us, that was strictly limited to us and Russia (like Barents Sea oil fields), I'd rather have a small, limited war between Norway and Russia where the Russians ran us over like they're running over Georgia now, than to have a full-scale world war between the entire NATO on one side and Russia with friends on the other. Avoiding world war for some local issues is not just best for the world, it's best for us as well. That's if our beef was strictly between Norway and Russia, as the South Ossetia- and Abkhazia-issue is limited to Russia/Georgia and not the world. If Russia attacked us for being NATO on the other hand, things would be very different. Saakashvili have been very loud calling the Russians barbarians and blaming the West for letting it happen, while officially the conflict never had anything to do with the West.
No more than Christian purity means anything to me in Norway, or Islamic purity means to me in Saudi Arabia. Yeah but your Jihad is against Israel's "purity" only even though Israel ethnically and religiously is significantly less pure than Norway, Saudi Arabia and about 180 other countries. I condemn them just as much for every Jew they threw out. No you don't. Your jihad is against Israel only, Israel and the US are the only countries you've been bashing on this forum, you drag Israel into absolutely every discussion and thread, even those that have nothing at all to do with the Middle East. Like this "russia/georgia" thread for example. Besides the jews don't need your condemnations, they need a country of their own instead. Your condemnations did not help in 1939, did they? But if they had a country in 1939 (not 1948) the lives of 6 mln jews would have been saved. So you can stick your [non-existent] condemnations where the sun don't not shine (which is in Norway). The current conflict is between those who lived there and those who live there, between those who had the land and those who have land. There were jews and arabs living there legally in 1947. The jews accepted the partition, the jews accepted the fact that two states (Trans-Jordan and the Palestinian state) were given to the arabs and that they got only 14-15% of Mandate Palestine. No one was supposed to lose land, not a single person - Arab or Jew. Too bad the arabs did not accept the partition and invaded Israel. They have no one to blame but themselves. Unfortunately they and their supporters never learn.
a_person, ahm, I think that it's actually YOU that always drag any discussion that involves Israel into a fight for or against jews, or with accusations of antisemitism. You always try to run off any discussion into the pit of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is your usual strategy of focusing on persons and personal attacks rather than treat the issues, thus disrupting any discussion that is critical of anything that Israel is involved in. You share this tactic with other organized Internet-debaters, like those of CAMERA, Honest Reporting and users of the Megaphone Desktop Tool. It is an undeniable fact that Israel delivered weapons, services and training to Georgia's military. There were military advisers to Georgia who were IDF officers and veterans. They celebrated causing russian casulties in the israeli media, pointed out that the russian reaction was to be expected and then the Israeli media lamented the possible consequences to Israel's relations with Russia when Georgia was overwhelmed. There are also other strong commercial israeli interests in Georgia, and I presume Georgia and Israel will continue to have strong ties, as is only natural. At least two ministers in the current government come from Israel and have strong israeli ties - the defense minister and minister for "territorial integration" - undeniably two very key ministerial posts very involved in the recent and ongoing conflict with Russia. It is therefore not unreasonable to say that israelis were very instrumental in this conflict. So there.
Hey, Israel did help Georgia to stand up to Russia. It's indeed undeniable. Where powerful and rich european democracies predictably chickened out tiny brave Israel stood its ground and supported its western democratic ally against a bullying superpower and regardless of the consequences. Kudos to Israel! What a lesson to France, Germany, the UK and other spineless and neutered European powers. I understand you are upset as you tend to side with the Arafats, Ahmadinejads and Putins in these conflicts and disputes. Sorry but the civilized world does not share your sentiment. I find it quite amusing that at least a dozen Jew/Israel/US haters on this forum post daily anti-American, anti-Israel and anti-semitic rants and yet they accuse me of being an "organized Internet-debater". LOL. What a bunch of pathetic losers.
Interesting that you choose to call France, Germany, UK and probably the scandinavian countries as well - not civilized. Actually, I think the UN Human Development Index might disagree with you - allthough facts do not seem to matter for you. The attack by Georgia is widely being seen as a mistake by Saakashvili in the USA as well now. You are not the one having the majority of the world behind you on this issue, not even close. Even some israeli media mentioned how Israel have a tendency and history of supporting regimes like that of Idi Amin and their ilk. I quoted that from the Ha'aretz earlier in this thread. No doubt, there were strong foreign influence in creating this armed conflict between Georgia and Russia as well, instigating the seemingly mentally unstable Saakashvili so as to make him delusional. I mention the organized disruptors and disinformants like you may be part of, because you apply similar tactics to them. Given the similar topics of interest as them as well, it is not unreasonable to suggest that you might be part of such organized groups.
Russia scales down Georgia toll The figure is far lower than the 1,600 people Russia initially said had died. Moscow says it now has a list of the names of 133 civilians who died in South Ossetia. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm Hey morons who accused Georgia of genocide and ethnic cleansing based on Putin's propaganda. Did not I tell you that they made complete fools out of you, did not I tell you that once again they were using you as "useful idiots" that you are. Anyway, those of you freaks who rushed to condemn Georgia publicly on this forum, does anyone of you have the guts to publicly apologize to Georgia?
Interesting that you choose to call France, Germany, UK and probably the scandinavian countries as well - not civilized. I did not call them uncivilized, I called them spineless and neutered. I also said that the civilized world does not share your sentiment regarding the conflict and it does not. And that includes both the government and the public of spineless, neutered but civilized France, Germany and the UK. The attack by Georgia is widely being seen as a mistake by Saakashvili in the USA as well now. Whether you're right or wrong it's not the issue here, no one cares about Georgia and Saakashvili when the entire world is appalled by the Russian invasion. Of course talking about Saakashvili is your only chance to sidetrack the discussion and obfuscate Russia's belligerent and aggressive actions so you keep harping the same point about Saakashvili and Israel over and over again. I wish I could say nice try but in fact it's pretty lame, transparent and ineffective. Even some israeli media mentioned how Israel have a tendency and history of supporting regimes like that of Idi Amin and their ilk. Israel has made its share of mistakes. Their support for pro-democratic pro-western Georgia while it fights aggressive imperialist Russia is not one of them. I am sure being a supporter of Putin and Ahmadinejaad you'll disagree.
a_person, well, I guess the deciding factor for whether the type of "support" is the right thing or not depends - on what it actually is. When it is funding, equipping, training the military of Georgia - I guess that is quite alright, unless it's in the extreme. If the support is instigating and planning an attack on innocent civilians - I think it would be deplorable. There were obviously someone with a clear rationale and very realistic analysis of an outcome for a conflict between Georgia and Russia who have aided Saakashvili in his campaign and attack. I pointed out several strategic advantages/rewards early on in this conflict, which are all now either fulfilled or being realized. To me they are not surprising at all - just like I mentioned a strong McCain advantage from this conflict, giving a strong indication that he could have a victory with the tide of change caused by this conflict. I also mentioned how I thought that the smartest thing by the russians would be to stop the fighting early - which they also did. However, their pursuit of secondary and regional strategies in Georgia were not helpful with regards to Europe. I think Georgia will become a NATO member or some day part of a similar european defense organization - although WEU is now being transferred to EDA. Georgia need to offset the influence of Russia to exist independently with guarantees well into the future, and a defense alliance is their only way to do this. I would rather that Georgia joined a strictly european alliance, than NATO - but the european defense alliance is still transforming itself into something more substantial. I think the casulty-numbers are still impossible to confirm, given the confusion about refugees and people being buried etc. I think Russia said that they had 100-something confirmed killed from South Ossetia, i.e people who were identified as killed.
well, I guess the deciding factor for whether the type of "support" is the right thing or not depends - on what it actually is. When it is funding, equipping, training the military of Georgia - I guess that is quite alright, unless it's in the extreme. If the support is instigating and planning an attack on innocent civilians - I think it would be deplorable. I mostly agree with this, perhaps with he exception of planning. Planning of military operations against military targets is what military advisers are paid to do. There is nothing wrong with planning assuming as you pointed out that these advisers don't dictate policies and political strategies, don't instigate attacks and do their best to avoid/minimize civilian casualties. So far there's been absolutely no evidence that Israeli officials in any capacity were in any way shape or form involved in instigating the hostilities. There is undeniable evidence that Israel was involved in training Georgian troops and the supply of military equipment though so Israel has every reason to be proud of its role in this situation. I think the casulty-numbers are still impossible to confirm Really? That's too bad that Putin and Co did not wait for a confirmation when they accused Georgia of genocide, ethnic cleansing and murder of 2000 innocent civilians. That's too bad that Russia's apologists including some on this forum did not wait for a confirmation either, bought Putin's lies hook line and sinker and did their best to spread those unconfirmed accusations smearing an entire country and a victim of Russian aggression in the process.