Ross Hooks

Discussion in 'Trading' started by El Cazador, Oct 4, 2002.

  1. Finally, I wish to address the topic of Duane Howe, a man who has been
    persistent in his attempts to blackmail me. He has threatened to defame
    if I don't give him money. What money is it that Duane wants from me?
    the money HE LOST trading! How did he lose it? By trading from a daily
    teaching fax whose express purpose was to teach, not to be in any way,
    manner, shape, or form an advisory. Those who subscribed to the fax all,

    without exception, had to sign a disclaimer expressly stating that they
    knew the fax was for teaching purposes only. Every single issue of the
    I still retain Duane Howe's signed statement to the effect that he read
    agreed to the disclaimer. However, Howe decided to go ahead and take the

    trades "anyhowe." Sorry but I couldn't resist the pun. Duane proceeded
    lose $25,000. Somehowe (there I go again) he decided to allow Bernie
    Goggins of Ross Trading to manage his money. This, after he had already
    lost money following the trades in the fax. Strange, to say the least.
    He spoke with Bernie Goggins, our in-house trader and fax preparer.
    (Goggins was the one who prepared the daily fax.) Bernie was also one of

    only two in our office who could have legally traded his money. The
    person has since retired from trading and is now otherwise occupied. I
    not a CTA, have never been a CTA, don't want to be a CTA, and never
    a single dime of Duane Howe's money. I never represented to him that I
    would trade his money. He himself stated, "I think there was too much
    Bernie and not enough Joe."
    That Duane knew that Bernie was trading the account is clear from his
    letter dated June 28, 1994. I quote:
    "Perhaps you are not aware of the magnitude of the losses and the
    that occurred on my account last September and October when Bernie was
    apparently trading it in your absence."
    That he knew that the trading was strictly Bernie's is also apparent
    this same letter:
    "Something is wrong here. That is not your style of trading according to

    your books, faxes, newsletters, etc."
    I do not know what conversations transpired between Howe and Goggins. I
    know that Goggins was trading a number of managed accounts, and that he
    lost a considerable amount of money besides Howe's. To the best of my
    knowledge, Howe lost $46,000: $25,000 all by himself, and the rest was
    lost through Goggins. Most of the money was actually lost while I was
    even present in Texas, where our offices were located.
    None of the others who lost money ever complained. They were mature men
    and women who had entrusted their money to a CTA for trading. They lost
    least half of their money, but they knew the risks, and the disclaimers
    that sort of thing are rampant. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT PAST

    he was a brand new CTA with virtually no experience at all in trading
    than on paper. Certainly, he did not trade according to my teachings, as

    acknowledged by Howe in his letter. Bernie was an independent individual

    and he trading according to his own methods and style. He never offered
    trading record to anyone, because he had no trading record.
    Howe then went on a blackmail campaign which continues to this day. He
    threatened to expose me. He entered an article in the Club 3000 News
    offering to sell his trading statements to anyone who would send him
    for them. (These trading statements were clearly doctored, as you will
    at the end of this letter.) When only a handful responded, he tried
    blackmail once again. Howe's reasoning is that because I did not sue him

    or Babcock, that all the accusations must be true. This is a strange
    of logic, but Howe has worked himself into a lather over the whole
    and his imagination has stretched to the incredulous.
    Obviously there is no reason for me to waste my time and money with
    to allay these meaningless false accusations. Those who know me know
    I am both too busy and too Christian to run to the courts for revenge.
    In June 1997, Duane Howe made his second attempt at blackmail. This
    prompted a letter to him from my wife.
    The pertinent contents of the letter follow:
    Dear Duane,
    "I find it a sad commentary that you have spent the last three years
    wrapped up in bitterness and a thirst for revenge, looking for reasons
    justify your feelings of being betrayed. You were not the only one to
    incurred losses at that time, but you are the only one we know of who
    not pick up the pieces, learn whatever lessons they could, and go on
    their lives. Such an approach to life can lead only to physical, mental,

    emotional, and spiritual illness, with no gain to you whatsoever.
    "...Much of what you are suffering is due to wrong premises. You assume
    successful traders do not lose money, when the fact is many of the most
    successful have incurred great losses, from which they were able to
    so that overall their gains were greater than their losses.
    "As for Bruce Babcock's "research" into the trading life of Joe Ross,
    too is based on some wrong premises. The first and most obvious error is

    caused by not knowing that Joe Ross' name was not Joe Ross most of his
    life. His surname was one we did not like, and as a gift to our children

    and ourselves, we changed it. Another premise is that he would hold his
    accounts in his own name, whatever it was at the time. Also false. For
    the last 30-35 years we have always operated any business in which we
    engaged as a Corporation. You would never find a Joe Ross account.
    "I believe Bruce also doubted Joe's history of his family's trading.
    Again, he was looking for a Ross family history. Actually, even if he
    known Joe's father's family name, he would not have found the history
    because it was his mother's family who were the successful traders.
    "We never bothered correcting Bruce on this because we just don't care
    take the time to confront someone who has nothing better to do than tear

    others down.
    "...Actually, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to tell you all this,
    except that I do feel sorry for you that you have spent all this time
    energy and effort just to prove yourself right, justified, victimized,
    whatever else. All you have done is wasted time that would have been
    better utilized by finding other ways to recoup your losses. Since
    did not seem to be your talent, you need to be looking to where your
    talents are and cash in on them somehow.
    #51     Oct 26, 2002
  2. "I was going to end the letter here, because you really have no claim on

    us. However, because Joe is a person who does care about what happens,
    has thought of a way he can help you recoup at least a part of your
    The $25,000 you lost on your own is gone. However, he is willing to help

    you end up with at least a part of the $21,000 you lost through the
    account. His proposal is this:
    "Joe will take $10,000 of our own money, and trade it up for you to the
    point of $21,000 profit in the account. That $21,000 will be yours if
    agree to take out a full-page ad in Futures Magazine in which you
    apologize to Joe for defaming his reputation. The ad will cost about
    $5000. You will have the balance free and clear.
    "The ball is now in your court.
    "Loretta Ross"
    Howe flatly refused the entire proposition.
    On December 15, 1997, he tried again. I will quote his letter word for
    word. The man is clearly disturbed.
    "As I was working on my response to your latest refusal to come up with
    reasonable settlement I recalled your offer of three years ago to let me

    take a seminar free of charge. Since I had no confidence in your trading

    ability I didn't even consider it.
    "Now you are offering S&P day-trading seminars for a very large fee and
    have been doing so for at least a year and a half. Anyone willing to pay

    that much would have to be thinking of doing some serious trading and I
    assume would be diligently applying whatever it is you teach in the
    seminar. Since you didn't trade the S&P at all on my account in 1993 and

    didn't offer me a free seminar this time I doubt that you really have
    anything to offer, but in case you have come up with something that has
    some merit and can generate even half the profits that you claim, I
    look into trading the S&P as a way to settle with you and get off your
    "I asked your wife about a year ago what you had to offer to back up
    claims of profitability, but she only repeated your standard reply which

    was to imply that a man of your stature shouldn't have to prove anything

    and that I should just accept your books and claims of success as
    enough. My doubts won't let me do that, but since you still claim to be
    real trader I'll give you a chance to prove it and settle up with me at
    same time. If you could refer me to some students who have made money
    your methods and if you could show me some P&S statements with
    S&P trading profits I would consider using your methods to recover the
    $46,000 of losses.
    "I don't expect to get a positive reply from you because I don't believe

    you really know how to trade the S&P, and I doubt if you have any
    profits to show to anybody. But I have been wrong before. I challenge
    to prove me wrong this time. I'll wait until the end of the year before
    do anything further.
    How can one answer such a negative and judgmental letter? He states that

    he doesn't believe anything I say, anyway. Would he believe that my
    corporate broker statements reflected trading by me? Would my board of
    directors approve of my giving out confidential profit and loss
    to Duane Howe? What right does Duane Howe have to see the corporate
    balance sheet?
    He wants me to give him access to some of my successful students so that
    can bother them for their statements. All so that we can win his
    But I have signed confidentiality agreements with my students to the
    that their names will not be given out. We have never sold or rented our

    mailing lists. Should we begin now to give out what we consider to be
    confidential information?
    There is something about Howe's last paragraph that strongly makes me
    visualize a schoolyard with a child saying "I double-dare you." Then, of

    course, always the threat with the deadline "before I do anything
    Much as I have tried to ignore the slanders of Bruce Babcock, Joe
    Duane Howe, and any others, I feel that in this day of instant worldwide

    communications I must at least be willing to post my side of their
    so that it is available to those who might be interested.
    Joe Ross
    #52     Oct 26, 2002
    Shortly after Howe published his first character assassination, I
    the following letter from a student who is an accountant familiar with
    entire story:
    In issue number 94-16 of the Club 3000 News, Duane Howe claims that Joe
    Ross traded an account for him from August of 1993 until February of
    He offers to sell a copy of his monthly account statements for a price
    $20. This in direct contradiction to his letter to Mr. Ross dated June
    1994 in which he admits that he knew that Bernie Goggins, a CTA, and not

    Mr. Ross, was trading the account.
    Is there any truth in what Mr. Howe is offering to sell? Let's see.
    Joe Ross has repeatedly stated that he does not and will not trade
    money for anyone. He has stated this in his books, in articles, at his
    seminars, and in his periodic publication Traders Notebook.
    The reason for his steadfast refusal to trade money for others is
    twice in the past when attempting to trade for others he has failed to
    them any money. He freely and publicly admits this. While able to trade
    effectively for his own account, the situation changes for him when
    for others. He feels that the trading of money for others places a
    psychological "monkey on his back" such that he is not able to perform
    the same way that he does when trading for his company.
    In June, not August of 1993, Duane Howe approached one of the staff
    at Ross Trading International Inc. requesting that Joe Ross trade a
    account on his behalf. He was told that Mr. Ross does not trade managed
    money for anyone, but that a staff member would be available to trade a
    managed account upon completion of a trading agreement in which he would

    agree to a fee schedule and agree to allow members of the staff at Ross
    Trading to enter orders on his behalf. Part of the agreement called for
    14 day notice in writing by either party, should they wish to
    discontinue the agreement. Mr. Howe signed such an agreement, paid an
    initial fee of 2% of his account balance, and opened an account in the
    amount of $50,000. The staff member, Bernie Goggins, who traded the
    managed account for Mr. Howe was a registered CTA. Mr. Ross is not a CTA

    and has never attempted or claimed to be one.
    For $20, Mr. Howe will send you a set of false statements dating from
    August 31, 1993 until his account was closed out in February of 1994. A
    close inspection will reveal the first falsehood in the hoax he is
    attempting to perpetrate.
    Notice that there is no opening amount of money shown as being received
    begin the account. Where is the entry for the initial $50,000 with which

    he began the account? The first entry shown is an odd amount of
    $73,968.79. Does this not strike you as a strange figure with which to
    begin a trading account?
    The truth is that from the time the staff member at Ross Trading began
    trade the account, until the time of the first entry shown in the Howe
    statements, an amount of $23,968.79 was earned.
    Shortly thereafter, in keeping with good money management practices, Mr.

    Howe was encouraged to place $20,000 into T-Bills. This was done by him
    and the entry is on the statement.
    >From that point until the final entry bringing his account to zero, you
    a series of trades and T-Bill turnovers. Mr. Howe wants to leave you
    the impression that $73,968.79 was lost by the trading of Joe Ross. What

    Mr. Howe hopes you won't notice is that he withdrew amounts of $19,842,
    $62.93, and $5,752.77 from the account. He also fails to tell that he
    himself made a number of the losing trades in his account, and that his
    negligence was responsible for any trading losses he incurred.
    Due to persistent phone calls and meddling in the account by Mr. Howe,
    November of 1993, Ross Trading issued notification to Mr. Howe stating
    in 14 days, the staff at Ross Trading would no longer be willing to
    on behalf of Mr. Howe. He was notified of all open positions and
    that responsibility for them would be his as of December 1. This notice,

    with return receipt requested, was sent to both Mr. Howe and to Mr.
    broker. Some of the open positions were winning positions, and if
    managed would have resulted in a huge profit to Mr. Howe.
    Beginning December of 1993, by virtue of the agreement and the thirty
    notice, Ross Trading no longer had any authority or discretion over Mr.
    Howe's account. Legally and ethically Ross Trading, having posted
    had no further responsibility to Mr. Howe.
    In January of 1994, Mr. Howe showed up at the offices of Ross Trading
    wanting to know what he should do with his account. He was told that it
    was his account and that he alone had discretion over it. He was told
    Ross Trading would and could do nothing further by way of trading his
    Mr. Howe requested that Joe Ross replace the staff member as trader of
    account. Mr. Ross politely refused, again reminding Mr. Howe that he
    not and will not trade managed money, and that he is not a CTA. Mr. Ross

    then offered to help Mr. Howe in trading his own account. He offered to
    tutor him without charge and to assist him in any way practicable. Mr.
    Howe refused the offer.
    The account statements offered by Mr. Howe in no way reflect what
    happened and are therefore false in four ways:
    1. They are presented as though Joe Ross traded the account. He did no
    such thing.
    2. They fail to reveal that from December 1, to the time the account was

    closed, no one at Ross Trading had anything whatsoever to
    do with the Howe account.
    3. They fail to reveal which trades were made by Duane Howe on his own
    4. They fail to show the true time period in which Ross Trading had
    discretion over Duane Howe's account.
    Respectfully submitted,
    Joe Bartlett, PA
    #53     Oct 26, 2002
  4. dottom


    When do you want to stop this game? I have more archives than you can find on deja b/c most of the discussion started in late '91-92, long before threads you see on Deja...

    Here's one you conveniently didn't post from Gary Smith (I use Gary's comments because his comments are more even-handed than many of the other posts from former students):

    #54     Oct 26, 2002
  5. Dottom, I have no intention in getting into a debating contest over this controversial issue. Only posted above information as it appears you chose not to provide the other side of the story.

    I was at the 1990 Computrac conference and attended the Joe Ross seminar (have a tape of it) It definitely was solely about how to place stops and was an excellent presentation. My impression of Ross was he was a very knowledgeable wise man with considerable trading experience. A likeable humble man with a quiet confidence in himself.

    I know Joe DiNapoli and have taken his private seminar. Whatever, disputes he & Ross have I have no knowledge of and doesn't diminish my respect for the work and contributions of both men.

    I have met Bruce Babcock (deceased) and attended 2 of his seminar presentations. My impression of him was, as Ross stated, he very cleverly set himself up as the "Ralph Nader" consumer watch dog of the trading software/training industry. He surreptitiously, under the guise of objective review of vendors products, would aggressively offer his own products for sale after trashing the work of others! He got a way with this duplicity because at this time the industry was largely unregulated. He was a slick salesman, skillful communicator and attorney.

    Personally, I didn't like Babcock. During his seminar presentations he was very sensitive to anyone who challenged his ideas or theories of the market and brow beat the dissenters into submission with his considerable intellect. His presentation style was condescending and self serving, in my view.

    He also stated that he didn't personally trade his systems as he didn't have the psychological temperament for trading BUT he had his brokers trade his systems on his behalf. Would be interesting to see Bruce Babcock's account statements!
    Not withstanding this he did have some good ideas that I absorbed.

    Ken Roberts. I read his book and attended a live seminar presentation of his in the early 90's. He was one of the slickest snake oil salesmen I've ever met! But his work, in my opinion is of little substance or value. Based on my impressions of him I would never quote Ken Roberts as a reliable third party reference of incontrovertible truth. (lol)

    I have 4 of the Joe Ross books which have provided much useful information and techniques. For me they were worth the cost and I continue to re-read them and obtain fresh ideas.

    There's always more behind the "locker room scuttlebut" that circulates as "FACT" about vendors, traders, brokers and market gurus. I doubt that anyone has the incontrovertible "truth" as Dottom claims.
    #55     Oct 26, 2002
  6. dottom


    Babcock did indeed produce trading account statements for the systems he sold. That was one of the reasons, despite some of the controversy between him and Ed Hill and others, I read what he wrote. Yes he was controversial, but he also produced facts that can either be validated or disputed.

    My point exactly!! Ross admits to writing that testimonial that Roberts uses to sell his peace of crap materials. Ross admits to being introduced to trading via Roberts crappy beginner's course. That contradicts every single statement he says about 40+ years of trading, trading 25-lot S&P contracts (equivalent to 250-lot eminis today, before adjusting for inflation!), yadi, yada, yada.
    #56     Oct 26, 2002
  7. jem


    I did not read the middle pages of this thread, and I was trying to leave and open mind. But let me review this. Joe Ross does not trade anyone else's money but we have this CTA staffer who will trade your money. Pay 2% and other fees and your account will be traded by a staffer.

    Then when the staffer losses half the guys money Joe Ross says that this CTA had no experience, I was away so it is not my fault. From the above facts as apparently stated by Joe Ross it seems that Howe or whoever would have a case of fraud against Joe Ross. Allowing a staffer to solicit funds for trading when that staffer had no experience trading. Sounds like misrepresentation and fraud to me and I went to law school and practiced law from 91 through 97. If I was taking a depo and the defendant made statements like these I would look at his attorney and say O.K. we have proven our damages now lets talk about settling the punitive damages claim. I will also submit my time card since you will be paying my clients attorney's fees.

    If the above writings are legit Joe Ross is a self proclaimed crook and irresponsible business man. His own letter while protecting his trading "reputation" proves he is on the cutting edge of being a con man. You hold a guy out as a staffer, solicit funds and then deny responsibility. I was wondering does Joe Ross consider himself a Robert Tilton type Texas "Christian" or perhaps he is from the Benny Hinn school of slick promotion and and worship of cash. (By the way to avoid lawsuits let me state that the above is all my opinion based on some of the things I have read here. And that Tiltion and Hinn are in my opinion public figures also and that in my opinion they were representing a false gospel of name it and claim it which has the side benefit or direct benefit of bringing in lots of cash to their own ministries.)
    #57     Oct 26, 2002
  8. dottom



    Good points. Not to mention that CTA in question was also the one in charge of the daily Ross faxes which had trade recommendations ("for educational purposes only") designed to teach trading the Ross way.

    Ross would not release past fax newsletters for independent review of their profitability.
    #58     Oct 26, 2002
  9. nkhoi

    nkhoi Moderator

    for your entertainment paypal me $1 for each page and I will test it page by page, TNT book 3 :D

    #59     Oct 26, 2002
  10. Well, well, well. Having a staffer trade the money and then blame the losses on him is very LOW. It's quite obvious that the money was given because of JR's 'reputation'. Doing a fax newsletter, and after someone has big losses following it, say: "Well, everyone knew it was only meant for PAPERTRADING!" is very LOW. Even if some of Ross' ideas have some merit, in my opinion the guy is a crook of highest pedigree.
    #60     Oct 27, 2002