Scientist, you really do need to learn how to read posts properly before you answer them. Point 1, you wanted to know if I take 4-6 points and in what time frame. I used the term "for arguements sake" in the original post. What that means is for "example". I take all different amounts of absolute points depending on the security I am trading. For example/"arguements sake", on a stock such as CIEN I would not be looking for 4-6 points I might be looking for 80 cents with 20 cents risk. MMM I may be looking for 10 points with 3 points risk. You get it? Thats what for arguments sake means its meant to cover a broad range possibilities by using an EXAMPLE! Also of course I hold overnights. I hold stocks 1-10 trading days or until targets are reached. I trade off the daily charts while using the 15 min and 60 min to refine entry with a tactical view and the weekly I use as a strategic view. Pont 2, you said swing trading is an easy game and daytrading is tougher. I would not classify it as easier as you say but rather more intuitively I would say it is slower and more readable. No different when in the first Matrix moives when NEO finally sees things in slow motion and thus can react "faster" than his opponent. I am sure without measure that I have been trading much longer than you and I have met more people and seen more markets than you have my young friend. My experience is that its the daytraders who end up not making it to the finish line as they burn out. Point 3, I never once mentioned ebb and flow does not occur on all time frames as you somehow decided to state that I did. Not even once! In fact everybody knows it occurs on all time frames. What I used ebb and flow as an example for in my original post was to point out that scalpers such as yourself are doing so because they feel that they are taking out money from the market all the while with the least amount of risk involved. In the end I can honestly say I am a breakeven daytrader/scalper but a great swing trader. I can also say that I have met many many many traders and almost all of whom have talked about retiring before they were 30 and you know what, they have! They are now retired from trading and working at Mcdonalds. You said you net more than any swing trader ever could. Ok maybe you do maybe you don't. Thats a pretty broad and silly statement to make. Do you net more than me for example? I don't want to make this personal with you Scientist because my original post was not directed at you but I have no problem backing anything I say. In fact here is my post on ET a couple months back. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24332&perpage=6&pagenumber=10
There is more than one way to skin a cat as there are courses for horses. Choose stocks as your trading milieu, sure. I chose index futures and in particular the Dow. Reason: big gyrations .. just fell deeply in love with the huge daily winning plays available. I like to go where the trees offer the very biggest apples. Incidentally, anyone ever done the apple tree test? Next: your system .. forget charts .. do your research. Very high probability forecasting is your aim. Get it put together .. back test it. When all done .. start accumulating. Don't jack away your capital/net profits on withdrawals to do this that and the other. Just stay on your stairway to the stars.
Amen, Amen, Amen and Amen. And: Amen. Cheese, very smart comments. Agree 100%. Also what you say about the Dow: Big gyrations. It's deemed the best scalping market still existent in the US these days. Yet mind you: The tick value is very small at $5, and the commissions are gigantic. Many of the professionals have moved onto overseas markets. Why not trade DAX, for example? That's what I'm doing now. ES & NQ died, YM has above described problems, but DAX has it all: - Most gyrations, largest swings continuously, awesome opening - Less market efficiency (competition) - Tick value of E 12.50/T - Comparatively tiny commissions. Would appreciate your elaboration on the apple tree test, though... Best Regards
Well, what's new? Who said I didn't understand you said this "for arguments sake"? Let's put it this way, in no (futures!) index I can think of day trading would I be happy with a 10 point profit over several days. It wouldn't be worth the work I put in as a scalper. Sure, you only work 10% of how hard I work. You're effectively leveraging your time much better than me. Fair enough. Still, at the end of the day, I have more money in the bank, with less risk than you. That's why trade this way. What makes me wonder is how can you be arrogant enough to compare yourself to NEO seeing things in slow motion in comparison to his opponent? You think you can see things faster than "them" because you have more time? More like the opposite. Reality is, all the other pro's have just as much (and much more) time than you do their overnight analyses. They can make supercomputers work for themselves while you're breeding over your "slow motion" charts. Never assume you have a speed advantage. The highest speed advantage you'll ever get in the markets is to have an ultra-fast execution platform, live updates and and your brain. No supercomputer in the world can beat that. That sounds much more like "NEO" to me, for now I'm moving comparatively ultra-fast in comparison to the large "opponents", who need time to crunch numbers, process their ideas and fill their orders. As you can see, I can totally revert the "NEO" argument and bounce it right back at you. As for your 15yrs market experience: I'm very impressed. I'm sure so would be my mentor, who has been day trading for the last 20+ years, from the futures pit all the way to the stock MM screens at large investment banks. Oh by the way, I think my mentor had tougher times, but never burned out. I'll make sure I watch out to get enough holidays. Many thanks for your concerns. OK then, so you understand the flow in all timeframes, so more money can be made there, true? So you can honestly say you're a breakeven day trader and you honestly want to teach me about the merits of day trading? Give me a break, please! I'm not going to go for a pissing match as to who of us performs better, you're right it's a silly statement to make. Yet the risk parameters speak very much in favor of this, in comparison to swing trading (unless you really margin yourself to the hilt). I have no intents and no interest in knowing what you net, I have seen your many posts with P&L statements and found it superfluous to need to post your P&L on a public forum, where thousands of others can see it. I'm not going to make any personal performance claims here as to keep it clean, but I would like to notion that any good futures day trader on a volatile index such as DAX can net well over $1,000 per day, or 20K/month, on a <20K margin account, which reflects a performance similar to yours or better, with lesser deposit. As an "extreme" example here on ET, we had Mark (velocity_trader) posting P&L screenshots of â¬2-4K quite a few days, trading 4-6 contracts. This is a lot more in US$, and with his brokerage (which you can use, too) that's with a margin of up to 18K. OK, admitted, I'm still rarely as good as Mark, but I'm not THAT much worse, either. Looks too risky to you? Well, not in consideration of the low time exposure and "stops" of a couple of ticks. Somebody here just sent me a funny PM asking me who "yanked your chain on day traders", or "which daytrader ran off with your gf". Well, I really don't care, but I don't accept discrimination of any style. I accept swing traders, and I expect the same from you for a day trader. Thank you - and peace. There are many ways to skin a cat.
Scientist so in the end you don't even post your P&L how typical. Lots of talk no back up. You still go on to say you have more money than me even after the fact you wont post your simple P&L hey pick any month you want anything at all. I doubt you have more money than my by they way. However while I will back up my trading performance on ET I will not post my net worth on ET in the form of statements. You mention I post my P&L all the time. Actually I don't only once did I post it on the thread that I referenced (and that was in 5 pieces because the document was long). The second time was here. Thats 125 posts on ET and only 2x's I have post P&L. Not sure where you get these sweeping statements of "I have seen your MANY posts with P&L". However, once again you still come back to fight. Folks in the end its like this. You have a guy like scientist who basically gets into pissing matches with everybody on Elite claiming here is a wealthy guy daytrading and that he is enormously successful. He posts 3.5 times per day and has a thread count of 1472 most of which are long winded banter reminiscent of Harrytrader. Then there is someone like me. I post less than once per day. I choose my posts and my replies. I have posted graphs with annotated charts that hopefully have been helpful. I have helped people with advice that have PMed and always happy to take the time to do so. I post a copy of a P&L for a month, I don't expect Scientist in all his bragging to ever do the same as he can't because he just has not made any substantial money and he wouldn't chance ruining this fake persona he has taken the time to build up all year. I think that in the end the irony is you cant prove who is who on an internet message board because even if you post your records it will be so conveniently ignored or worst brushed aside as Scientist has just done even though he makes reference to his greater profitability and net worth. Amazes me! P.S. About your comment with the supercomputer you small minded man. I have worked with and been in the mutual fund industry, CFO of a hedge fund, and I personally know Jim Simons and his staff of the reminiscence Fund. If you don't know who they are they have a billion+ under mgmt and trade exclusively with algorithms using MIT, Stnaford etc pedigreed individual with mathematical degrees. They find swingtrades this way. I can say they don't use supercomputers, they use Pent 4's. Same thing available to me. Furthermore, my trading role is not find a way to invest 1 billion dollars, I am exploiting a niche and therefore when I find a chart at night or it breaks out during the day to trigger e a swing trade, the end result its that its money! I can clearly see you do not understand that. Faster technology only gets you in the wrong trade faster. Now either post your P&L or move the hell on Scientist. (However, since I am an astute reader of charts, I can say your chart shows me low probability that you will ever post your P&L but you will make an excuse and continue to claim your greatness on your next reply. Please I DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG!) If you decide to go away and not reply I can promise you in all fairness I will consider this matter closed. However let it be known that I am always going to defend myself if you do.
I see how your getting offended reflects very clearly only the validity of my arguments. If they weren't true, you wouldn't take offense to them (simple psychology). Of course this doesn't include absolute statements/insults such as those you have stated about day traders. You pride yourself that you've attached screenshots of P&L statements. Do you really want me to answer to this or shall I mention how ridiculous and laughable this comment is? I can take any broker's P&L statement, open Adobe Photoshop and put in anything I like within a few minutes, and post it here. How impressive is that? Oh wait, no, but it wasn't even actual PDF or the like statements you posted. It was TerraNova online web-based statement! So, no need even to work in Photoshop. Just save it, open in HTML editor and edit a bit of text, then save and refresh. Just add a few zero's. = 2 minutes of work LOL! Are you getting my point here? How much credit would you give a statement here posted by me, or anybody for that matter? If you did give it any credit, how high would you estimate your own intelligence / naiivetee to be? Give me a break. As I said, the P&L statement thing is complete nonsense, unless you post here a link to a website link hosting your audited account with one of the top, credible accounting firms, like Effron. It would have to be an Effron-server based link, though. Would you go to such efforts? Nor would I. Until then, the point of discussion is futile and requires no further elaboration. It's just good though, thanks for giving me the opportunity to point out the naivetee of some of the posters here. Hey, there was no offense in the "MANY" posts with P&L. It was only a friendly acknowledgment! Please take some Valerian. LOL! Give me a break! Pissing matches? I was the guy who said in the last posts "let's not make this a pissing match" - Remember? You are the guy who started here with totalitarian statements about day traders! :eek: Now you really must be kidding me! Do you know how many posts and replies I've made in an attempt to be helpful? How about the DAX Scalping thread running right now? So far, I've still answered every single question on that thread. I've put more time into helping people than you could even dream of. It's almost a part-time job. That thread and the in-depth disucusions make up 80% of my posting here. There's more value in 5 posts than in 100 of yours. Anybody can go there and verify it. Talking about PM - Do you know how much PM I have received with questions and patiently answered to people? It's like a freakin' charity! That's why I started that thread in the first place. That thread is now the largest thread that has ever existed in the Eurex forum, by both views and replies, and it's got a lot of positive comments all over it. You wouldn't even manage to build, not to even mention maintain such a thread. You can tell me anything you like, but you can't tell me I haven't taken the time to discuss and answer every damn question and issue in there. Give me a break, seriously! Go there, convince yourself and then be quiet. Thanks! As said, please refer above, "Photoshop & Frontpage Express". Very impressive. Want me to post million-dollar statement? And please, where again have I stated my net worth, or even "higher than yours"? Thank you in advance for posting quote/link/reference. All very interesting. I have mentioned previously that I respect your experience, since you've been doing this "longer than me". Very good, I've never discredited that. I also believe that you've worked with great hedge funds and super quants. Why not? Good on you. Equally, I don't accept you discrediting me for being an intraday trader. You can twist and turn, I'm not going to move on this. You, as a (still) break-even day trader, can't tell me what day trading is. Period! Let's get this straight: All my arguments here are dead-valid and carefully chosen. There's no subjectivity or anger involved, and no personal attacks. Only getting things straight. I still expect your apologies for your "outbreak" of subjective remarks and insults on day traders. I don't accept it - basta. And I hope we can settle this herewith in a peaceful manner, as appropriate for mature adults like yourself. Warmest regards and have a great week.
So scientist you decided to reply. I read you correctly. I have completely pissed you off haven't I? You are so mad at me you can only come up with a retort of "my records must be false". I am glad that they are impressive enough for you to think so. I do admire the way you reply though. You basically take a persons thoughts out of context and bold face it, while you then manipulate the real meaning to make yourself look like an innocent. In fact you do this all over ET to many people. You take so much time in doing this how the hell do you have the time to even trade, make your jewelry, drive your fancy car, and give your GF a good lovin? Go ahead post your P&L or create a false statement as you say its so easy to do. I will give you 1 hour to get it done. Also I can tell you anything you want to know about daytrading. I admit I breakeven at it, I'm an honest person. I admit that my niche is swing trading. Scientist I only have to say that I trade alongside (via chatroom) Specul8r, Riskarb, Hello Dollars, and Vulture, If you want to find out if I know what I'm doing or not ask them. Oh yea I think you remember those guys they basically were the people you got into a pissing match with on ET last week. Let me give you a link to that thread for those who don't remember. Bottom line Scientist. You cant put up numbers either "fake" or real. However like I said you have 1 hour to bring up some statements. Furthermore, you can even fake them if you think thats something that anybody can do off hand. I find that one to be the funniest arguments yet. I faked my P&L lol! What a moron! What strikes me funny is that in all of your posts your quite inconsistent for a manipulator. You post that you believe daytrading is the evolution for a great trader because its much more difficult than an easy game of swingtrading. Furthermore you go on to say that there are times its gives you fits but you accept the higher risk of daytrading because of the money in it. Then you go on too contradict yourself in another post and say you make more money than me accepting lower risk. Well thats where you just made an "arse" of yourself. So now you say what you do is lower risk(daytrading) but before you said it was higher risk.(daytrading) However you call yourself an expert of daytrading! What a buffoon! Even more striking is you say swingtrading is a beginners game. However you state that you one day "strive" by the time your 30 to be able to do it and be comfortable with the risk of over overnight gaps and unexpected events. Scientist, I'm laughing so hard here in NYC at you now! So now where you called swingtrading a beginners game, you admit to having a fear of overnight gaps/unexpected events that prevents your from attempting it? So what your saying is swingtrading has dangers/higher risks that only an experienced trader should be able to mange properly? Hmm very contradictory. Oh yea, if replying to a post is what you called being emotional pissed off then you must be the most emotionally pissed off person in all of ET. Lastly, what makes this so funny is that my original post never mentioned you at all, you decided to take it personally by trying to shred my post with your b.s. lies. You didn't expect that I was someone who would back up with real P&L so you got more than you expected. No where in my original post was I "harsh" on daytraders, critical of the method yes, harsh no. You must not be doing well to take it to heart so badly and not be able to provide a single statement to back up any claims you have tried to produce here on Elitetrader for the last year. Anyway here is the thread that shows what scientist really is all about: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threaded=24974 P.S. For those folks following this argument. I will not reply again to any posting whatsoever that Scientist may come back to me with after this post of mine. I have decided that he is a troll to ET and I will be the one to put this to rest by not replying again.
"I" have never found backtesting to be a reliable method, that's not to say it isn't a viable way of testing strategy and predetermining risk and reward. I always use discretion in my trades, the challenge for me is keeping that discretion within the parameters of the plan. Having experience with a specific vehicle, whether index, stock, future or trading baseball cards certainly gives a clearer perception. That certainly not sufficient enough, its recognizing the pattern repetition and acting on it. I believe that is tha major cornerstone of technical analysis...capitalizing on repeating patterns. Futures are a completely different animal, while the TA patterns are the same, the behavior and probability are quite different. In the past I have dabbled in futures, indexes, commodities, etc., and humbly I have no real experience trading outside of stocks and equity options. That for me has its pros and cons...for example I have traded stocks whose RSI was superior to that of an index, and on the flipside I have missed several opportunities in individual stocks when the broader markets have blown right passed me. In this game, the most important thing for me is being comfortable and not complacent. Planning entry, exit, risk and reward before hand and then using discretion within their parameters works for me. When I began trading in 1990 there was /were no: - real point and click trading platforms - trailing stops - automated stops on Nasdaq stocks - alerts - reliable backtesting vehicles - "Scientist" That forced me to be more stringent and less discretionary in my approach. Some people on this board never experienced trading without point & click, real time Level II & charts, automated stops on Nasdaq and listed, etc...while many do. As the technology evolved discretion became more affordable. One of the downsides in having experience is being steamrolled over by people who use the newer technology. I, like many here am happy to have survived the "changing of the guard." Have a plan, stick to it and evolve...or be consumed That's what works for me Thanks Scientist
Funny to see you reply. To be honest, I can't be bothered going in on all that stuff - lies and nonsense - again. What a waste of time! As for your notion that I claimed you're faking statements; Give me a break! I never said that (quote me!) All I said is that I could do it, therefore I don't post any. I wouldn't call your bored enough to fake statements. But if you had to prove something, it's a matter of minutes. Your implication that it's "not so easy to do off-hand" is either complete ignorance and naivetee or complete denial. The choice is with you. Essentially, the ignorance/naivetee part means you're too undereducated about the ease of editing HTML (9-year-old can do it), while the 'denial' part means that you're trying to hide the fact that you faked the statements by putting on the "stupid man" act. Mind you, the more you're trying to defend your point that faking TerraNova/ IB statements isn't a piece of cake, the more I believe that might be exactly what you're doing. So don't even try. If you had any idea how easy it is, you'd all blush in shame. To "give me 1 hour to fake a statement" must be yet another joke. Give me a break, You, or anybody can do it in 5 minutes! I'll attach a quick make-up for your courtesy, though. Have a nice week!