Well, This thread has gone on and all I see now are people digging trenches. Look, for the "scientists" : You need proof that God exists, and you like to "prove" your points using two-valued logics. You should temper your "logic" for some doubt. Perhaps you are aware of Gordel's Incompleteness Theorem? It states that there are assertions in any complete and consistent system that are IMPOSSIBLE, even in principle, to be proven true or false. So it was very possible that Fermat's Last Theorem was undecidable - that was a stupid simple number theory problem that took three hundred years - now you want to leap from that to the existence of GOD? PLUHEASE... Let's move on to Physics. Perhaps you are aware that certain GUT's predict the existence of magnetic monopoles, that is, a magnet with only one pole. Well, no one has ever seen one, yet our theories predict that there should be one. Or perhaps you have heard about the value of the Fine Structure Constant. It is well known that if the FSC is off by even one part in 100, 000, 000,000,000, life would not be possible. Or perhaps you are aware that our theories predict that the proton decays, or that the neutrino has mass - none of this things have been observed, yet they are predicted by our most advanced "logic proofs." So, when you are trying to get a proof or disproof for the existence of GOD, whatever that even means as we are probably incapable of defining it at our current stage of evolution, I suggest you humble yourselves. To the Theists: Please stop trying to convert any of us, or call us names (or lack thereof) - it makes you look silly...GOD is about one thing and one thing only at this stage in our (the human race's) short life span: FAITH (some of my Jewish friends associate that word with Christianity - I use it in the English sense...) BTW, the more "science" I understand, the more astonished I am that this (existence) _COULD_BE_ one big accident. When I was fifteen till I was about twenty five years old, I sounded like you guys the "scientists." Today, I am less certain about the existence or nonexistence of GOD (not the biblical one - I doubt that is GOD.) "There is more to Heaven and Earth than is dreamt by your Philosophy" - William Shakespeare. nitro
HEY check the first page of this thread for a plausible natural explanation for the origin of morals. No need to evoke omnipotent 'unicorns' (and if you think your supernatural creations are more likely over a simple plausible natural mechanism -natural selection) then you truly are...WITHOUT HOPE!
OK, for anyone interested in my somewhat questionable and worthless take on this whole thing: 1. Fasterpussycat must have stopped trading. He is starting to make a lot of sense again. And I was always under the impression that once brain cells were gone, they were gone. 2. Nitro and I MissedTheBoat are the most reasonable people here. 3. Thunderbolt is the least reasonable person here. 4. Gordon Gekko is the most passionate person here. 5. Darkhorse and Daniel_M are the most eloquent people here. 6. I am the dumbest person here. 7. Chasinfla is the most conspicuously absent person here. 8. Tripack is the most level headed person here. 9: Axeman is the most concise person here. 10. It's Good To Be an American, What Can I Say? (Randy Newman)
Watch this. Nitro quote''Faith-some of my Jewish friends associate that with Christianity'' That's understandable. Facts are; faith is first mentioned by Moses.Defined in the letter to the Hebrews.[Hebrews 11:1] I like the creation -evolution scientific debates on Trinity Broadcast Network.[We win!!!] _____________________ Don Feder[hopefully spelled right] told Dr.Jerry Falwell-go ahead and convert us.[The Hebrews] Actually when you care for someone,you want to see them right;but I respect a right to be wrong.
Hold on a sec. Do you believe God doesn't exist, or do you believe God is a jerk? Two completely different statements spoken from two completely different camps. The question "If God is good why does he let evil exist" contains a major philosophical flaw, as has already been covered on another thread on this board. Dan you can obviously believe what you choose, I don't have to tell you that. But I must point out you continue to hold two fallacies in terms of your assumptions as to what I believe: 1) you continue to suggest I have no evidence for God. This is not true at all. My substantial gathering of evidence convinces me but not you. But of course it's not really relevant whether You are convinced, because you are not me. Again, this is my belief obviously. But for you to say that I have no evidence is prima facie incorrect. Better to stand by your vehement disagreement. 2) you think I "need" to believe in God for some reason because of a personal weakness of some sort. I am a capable guy with a beautiful wife, a happy life and deep confidence in my abilities. I don't need a crutch or a panacea or a mental drug to brighten my dark days (no pun intended ha ha). I believe in God because I know he is there- I have spent so much time and effort developing my own personal honesty that I could not do otherwise even if I wanted to. And I love God, the way a child loves his dad. From the time I was drawn to him until now, as I have learned more about his character and essence I grow to love Him more. And this will continue. There is no whining or clutching or straining or in this. p.s. still happy to have a beer w/ ya some day if our paths ever cross
Dark, You continually claim you have all this evidence but you fail to present it....again. I think your earlier post described your position well, and you are arguing semantics at this point. You do not seem to have any evidence that you can show anyone else. From what I understand, your "evidence" is your personal experience with god. Not "evidence" at all, merely experience. But what we are calling evidence, is something that can be shown to ANOTHER person and rationally accepted. Do you have any video tape of your experience with god? Maybe a tape recording? Some eyewitnesses of your account maybe? Some physical evidence? A halo perhaps Do you think any rational being should accept your personal experience as enough evidence for the existence of god? I could introduce you to thousands of people who have had "personal" experiences they swear are real from many many belief systems. None of this adds any weight to wether or not this is true in reality in any way. Period. I have seen NO evidence from you that god exists. Just claims of personal experience which do not constitute evidence for anyone outside of yourself. A rational person can not be expected to accept this as evidence for a claim so grand. Its not even close. peace axeman
Nitro, I understand you believe in a God, but not in Christianity, right? (I've been there). The thing is, whilst your position is not nearly as harmful as traditional Christianity, it is just as illogical and irrational. If not the bible, from where did you get your concept of God? Have you met him? Can you even define him? It is my understanding that the existance of black holes was predicted by mathematical models of the universe long before we had proof of them. By what reasoning, from which model of the universe, did you deduce that, although we might not currently be able to detect him, such a being MUST necessarily exist. Compared to christianity - which has been and still is - positively harmful, and deserves all the vicious attacks it gets, the agnostic position is largely a philosophical matter. As such, it is my position that no rational arguments for a supernatural being can possibly be made because, by definition, a supernatural being is beyond the natural universe and thus beyond the only conext of which the concept of understanding is even possible. Furthermore, even if by some brilliant argument the existance of a intelligible supernatural being is made possible (and I've heard some pretty damn good arguments - all of which have been refuted), there is absolutely no reason at all for anyone to assume that such a being is the God of christianity. No reason at all. They are two entirely different mattters. Such a being may be Allah - who endorses the Koran; maybe Shiva; Zeus; Ra; or any other of the thousand gods man has invented, or he maybe none of them at all.