i see you haven't lost any of your evading skills 'dolt. i'll give you another shot. what period of history AFTER this 'fall of man' (groan! i can't believe i'm talking this shit, lol) was better than today? don't bother, i'll answer it for you. NONE.
tip of the day: Lost interest ? Can't make sense from all this crap ? just put thunderbolt et al on ignore and read again. All will make perfect sense to a reasoning mind
This was your question to me. The one period in history when it was better for man was during Adam/Eve's years before they ate the forbidden fruit. Everything else is man's own doings and is not what we were designed for. You call this world great and I say it's a mess and I'll gladly point it out if you wish. However, deep down you know this world is in sad shape or else you are living in a box. There's life outside of your nice little suburban dwelling.
You cant compare a fictional world to a real world Thunder. Im not aware of any time in REAL WORLD history when things have been better either. If you want to use the time of Adam & Eve, you must first prove their existence. But we all know, you only have the "bible" to go by. That doesn't cut it. peace axeman
What were we designed for? Living naked in a garden with no knowledge? Not that it sounds bad, but it seems quite a simple life for beings created in His image. Such a waste of talent. Or is there some other purpose for which we were designed? Please enlighten me. I am thirsting for knowledge. (oops, wrong word). MD
I'm going to step out on a limb here and talk about reality a bit more. I've made some posts in the past about quantum realities, but I never really took the time to elaborate on it. I'm going to make a somewhat long post about my thoughts on all of this and share them with other "open-minded" individuals. A lot of people have their own immutable opinions about this, so they may or may not get anything out of what I'm about to say. Quantum physics is a far jump from Newtonian "classical based" physics. In quantum physics, you quickly learn that the world is based upon mere probabilities at the smallest levels and no concrete and actual events. Cause and effect melt together in such a way where an action doesn't necessarily have to have a previous cause. First, let's start with a fundamental understanding of what "consciousness" truly is. We perceive the world in which we exist through our senses. Photons hit our retina and get translated into images that our mind interprets and gives meaning to. Sound energy hits our ears and presents us with more information about our external reality. Combine this with tactile information and you have the three most important senses working together to give us a painting of the reality which we perceive. However, quantum physics has proven that that the mere act of observation causes a change in the observed system. It has gone even deeper to show that, through logic theory, things to not exist unless they are observed. This is not speculation but the truth behind quantum physics. Now, generally speaking, these probability events on a microscopic scale play out in this universe when observed. The many various wave patterns that exist simultaneously cannot exist altogether in one reality, so scientists have branched away from Bohr's Copenhagen interpretation of quantum reality into a "many world's" theory. In fact, this solves a lot of problems with "discrepancies" within our very own universe. The Many Worlds Theory, or MWT for short, says that at every possible branch within a quantum level, another universe exists to allow for every possible wave structure to exist. I won't go into this in detail, but if you want more information there are many great articles on the web (Google "EPR Paradox, Bell's theorem, etc). What is interesting is that, for so long, science has grounded itself in empirical methods that can be reproduced and validated. Quantum physics doesn't lend itself well to such testing methods, and testing more than one variable generally leads to a change in another. Bell has suggested that our reality is non-local, meaning that a change in one system will affect another system far away -- at least on some level beyond human comprehension. Now, we get to a level of science where the world is "fuzzy and indeterminate -- ruled by probabilities and not absolutes." This is precisely coming full circle back into various realms of "mysticism." At the highest order of all things may lie a super-reality where our own reality is merely a tiny subset. We are incapable of understanding more than one reality through the present system that we reside in. If you study religion and get "really deep" into Western Civilization and culture advancement, you will find that most of the world's religions were generated by governments to help control the population. Religion was, in many ways, another method to make the general populace believe certain things that would help the government or empire retain absolute control. This doesn't include *all* religion, but definitely covers the major ones like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. As a matter of fact, the very bible that people use for Christianity is an imperfect translation from old hebrew. The entire story of the apple and Adam and Eve is based upon symbolism from inaccurate and often impossible direct interpretation from the older forms of hebrew. The bible has been translated so many times, that it is probably only bares a slight resemblance to the original writings. What is really fascinating is that you have here a perpetuated scheme throughout history of offering religion to the masses in an effort to control them and aid in governmental operations or empire building. Then, once religion became a state within itself, the same humanistic needs of greed and control caused popes to go vis-a-vis with Kings in an effort to gain power. (See Pope George and King Henry about the In vesture controversy). Technology, at least in our society, has slowly killed the need for religion. Between running the girls to Soccer practice and the boy to baseball practice, getting home to cook dinner, having to work late hours at the office, etc -- who has time for religion? In fact, if you look at the demographics of religion today in the United States, I bet you see a somewhat direct correlation to income level and religion -- with those in lower income brackets being more religious than those in higher ones. A lot of people don't want to talk about these things in public because religion is still something people will get shot over. However, the truth, as I have seen it while studying science and history, is that religion is flawed and just another avenue created by man to gain power over others. This pisses off a lot of people who look at a lot of Christians as bible thumpers -- and I think a large portion of atheists are atheists not because the idea of god is a bad one, but because this is some form of lashing back against that "big contorted lie we call Christianity, Judaism, etc" and through that anger of perpetuated lies, atheists will quickly reject all forms of "worship." Now, getting back to science, I have dabbled in a few psychedelic drugs in my time and I have definitely seen realities that are far removed and dislocated from the one I am normally in on a daily basis. Obviously, it is probably not the fact that I am "somewhere else" and moreso that my perception of "the here and now" is extremely warped. If you want to know just how "warped" reality can get, look up a drug called "DMT" on the internet (www.deoxy.org). This goes back to the older forms of religion, such as hinduism and shamanism, etc -- these religions, in my opinion, are actually more advanced and truer than a lot of the commercialized religions such as Christianity. Unfortunately, if someone grows up being spoon-fed by the church and their parents, they aren't going to give up the Christian God, even if ample evidence supports the fact that it is all just a big side-show. I was raised with a Lutheran background and attended church on a weekly basis as a kid. Going to church every Sunday was the most depressing experience of my life -- and bible study was second to none for being the most boring experience one can put up with. Here, you are taught that God is a loving god, yet he's an angry god. He wants you to go to heaven, but is equally ready and willing to send you to hell. The church feeds people so much BS that it is amazing -- and if the preacher isn't preaching about sin or hell, the church has you singing depressing songs about how the world is really an evil place and that God is the good-guy trying to bail out a select few people who believe in him. Well, as I got older, I steered away from that and in my late teens / early 20's I started to dabble with drugs. I don't mean to suggest that the use of drugs is some magic elixir to finding truth to existence, but I did have much more of a religious experience during the times I was high than all of the times I've gone to church. (Again, the people at Church would say that drug usage is the work of Satan -- yada yada yada). What I found out through that time-period in my life is that reality is not an absolute but a very malleable reality that can be shaped through perceptions and expectations. We, as humans, really do walk a fine line of sanity on a daily basis because, underneath the social programming we've received since birth, a lot of the true reality is shielded from our own eyes by expectations that have been drilled into our heads since birth. So, in conclusion, I do believe in a god or super-essence to reality because I've been to places that have shown me aspects of my own existence that are simply undeniable. This is anecdotal evidence, but this also comes full circle because science itself is running into this problem where empirical studies can no longer be used to dive deeper into reality. I have said basically all of what I set out to say before I posted this. I've shared some personal things with you, but mainly because I feel that the mature thing to do is to put it all out on the table and not let "society" dictate our actions on a daily basis.
Now, we get to a level of science where the world is "fuzzy and indeterminate -- ruled by probabilities and not absolutes." This is precisely coming full circle back into various realms of "mysticism." i don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to reach. we simply have a new understanding of reality. it doesn't mean we all of a sudden dump reason and turn to mysticism for answers (as mysticism, i'm sure you're only too aware, is far too obtuse and susceptible to personal whims to be any use as a guide to reality). At the highest order of all things may lie a super-reality where our own reality is merely a tiny subset. We are incapable of understanding more than one reality through the present system that we reside in. the operative word there being "may". which really doesn't have anything to do with the conclusion you later reach (that there is a "god"). Now, getting back to science, I have dabbled in a few psychedelic drugs in my time and I have definitely seen realities that are far removed and dislocated from the one I am normally in on a daily basis. Obviously, it is probably not the fact that I am "somewhere else" and moreso that my perception of "the here and now" is extremely warped. If you want to know just how "warped" reality can get, look up a drug called "DMT" on the internet (www.deoxy.org). This goes back to the older forms of religion, such as hinduism and shamanism, etc -- these religions, in my opinion, are actually more advanced and truer than a lot of the commercialized religions such as Christianity. "truer". not sure there's really such a word. i thought something was true or it wasn't. anything, in that case, would be "truer" than christianity, as the entire superstructure of that religion is based on falsehood. "more representative of reality" would be a better way to categorise your views on shamanism and hinduism. although i, for one, would say that those religions also miss the mark. What I found out through that time-period in my life is that reality is not an absolute but a very malleable reality that can be shaped through perceptions and expectations. of course, the rejoinder to that is to say that life, and human life in particular, has evolved in such a way that our senses are in fact accurate represenations of reality, and that the pyschadelic experiences are a distortion of a constant reality. So, in conclusion, I do believe in a god or super-essence to reality because I've been to places that have shown me aspects of my own existence that are simply undeniable. This is anecdotal evidence, but this also comes full circle because science itself is running into this problem where empirical studies can no longer be used to dive deeper into reality. as a statement of opinion, that is fine. but i admit i don't see the natural progression between the rest of your post to your conclusion. to me it says, "this is what i think of the world, this is what i've experienced, and, oh, btw, i believe in god". that's not too knock you (i'm over doing that), but just to say that your description of reality, or message that reality can't really be known (which i think you try to say), isn't really reliant on the existance of a "god", or "super-essence" (as you put it). and my only reason for saying so, is that this thread directly deals with that question.