Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

Discussion in 'Politics' started by rs7, Aug 29, 2002.

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  1. sorry buddy, wrong answer

    maybe it is YOUR OPINION that god=universe, but to most christians and theists i know of, god and universe are separate.

    also, don't you think it's a little confusing to use "god" and "universe" synonymously?

    equating "god" with "universe" is a really cheap way to claim that EVERYONE really believes in god, because of a simple piece of definitional wizardry..

    universe is complex? tell me something i don't know....
    does that mean we just abandon reason and rationality and come up with whatever kinds of crazy explanations soothe our desperate need to understand everything?
     
    #1521     Sep 25, 2002
  2. As far as the alphabet, that's fine. All I said was that muslums did not create it. Tampa said "followers of Islam." I had read that the first alphabet came from Crete, but if this is wrong, so be it (I never mentioned it anyhow).

    With regard to calculus, Archimedes of Ancient Greece was the first to work on it.
     
    #1522     Sep 25, 2002
  3. rs7

    rs7

    [​IMG]
     
    #1523     Sep 25, 2002
  4. MUChris

    MUChris

    Since I had never heard of Archimedes working on calculus, I decided to look it up on the internet. Let me be the first to openly admit to being wrong on an argument on ET.

    http://www.hld.ca/school/First_Year/hist_calc.html

    Thank You, I learned something today Boat!

    MUChris
     
    #1524     Sep 25, 2002
  5. as a trader, you should be aware of the risk/reward for believing in god. As long as you use good technical analysis and stop losses you can avoid the pitfalls like brainwashing cults and becoming a Terrorist in a Jihad.

    As long as you keep your emotions under control , believing god is like a free put option on your soul.
     
    #1525     Sep 25, 2002
  6. Yet another version of Pascals wager.

    I like the anology though.
    But if you accurately calculate the risk/reward you
    will find that belief is a very bad bet.

    You quickly run into problems, like, which god
    to believe in?? Zeus maybe?

    There over over 2000 gods to choose from.

    Pick the wrong one and you will end up in 1999 HELLS. :D


    This also does not take into the account the negative
    effects of belief.

    For more details read:
    http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html


    peace

    axeman

     
    #1526     Sep 25, 2002
  7. Everyone should believe in my big foot.
    Because you have nothing to lose by believing
    in my big foot.

    BUT...and this is a huge but, if you don't believe
    in my big foot, my big foot will get mad, and
    you will end up with my big foot
    up your ASS!!!

    So you see, if my big foot actually exists, and you
    believe in it, then you are safe. My big foot is happy
    and wont mess with your ass.

    But if all you silly skeptics reject my big foot, and
    it ends up that my big foot actually exists, you
    are so screwed.

    My big foot up your ass is really gonna hurt.

    peace

    axeman
     
    #1527     Sep 25, 2002
  8. Descartes’ First Proof of God’s Existence

    P1 - The cause must be at least as perfect as the effect.

    P2 - The idea of God must have a cause.

    P3 - The idea of God is of a perfect being.

    C1 - The idea of God is itself perfect (If the idea is of something perfect, the idea itself is perfect).

    P4 - I am not perfect.

    C2 - I cannot be the cause of my idea of God.

    C3 - Something else must exist to be the cause of my idea of God.

    C4 - By P1, this thing must be at least as perfect as my idea of God.

    P5 - Only God is at least as perfect as my idea of God.

    C5 - God must exist.

    Critique:

    P1 is not particularly clear in its meaning. What does "perfect" mean here? What are Descartes’ criteria for perfection in such a general proposition? And are there degrees of being perfect? Normal usage of the term "perfect" is for a quality that is instantiated or it is not, as in a perfectly straight line. Either a line is perfectly straight or it is not. We do not use the term to indicate matters of degree, hence we don’t say things like "Line A is more perfectly straight than line B." Perfection is a two-valued function, not a continuous variable. Something is either perfect in some regard (by some criteria for perfection) or it is not. We do, on the other hand, talk of degrees of imperfection, as in the degree of deviation of a curved line from a straight line. Since P1 is not clear in its meaning, it cannot be, by Descartes’ own criteria for self-evidence, self-evidently true.

    P2 is, by Descartes’ Causal Principle "Something cannot come from nothing," true only if his idea of God has not come about, that is, if it has not always existed. If it has always existed, then, like Descartes’ God, it does not require a cause. To ask if Descartes’ idea of God has always existed is to ask if Descartes’ mind has always existed. Can Descartes know with certainty that his mind has not always existed? He may lack memories of such a long existence, but a lack of memory proves nothing. Descartes probably cannot remember anything from his first two years of infancy. Does that prove he didn’t exist then? And Descartes cannot make use of birth certificates, county records, testimony of his parents, and other external-to-his-mind sources because he has yet to prove the existence of a world external to his mind. Descartes has not proven that his mind and this idea of God in his mind have not always existed, so the truth status of P2 is questionable.

    P3 , Descartes’ concept of God, is, for Descartes’, a self-evident given, and I suggest we give him the benefit of the doubt here and play along with him.

    C1 is rather strange. Descartes is trying to show that he is not perfect enough to be the cause of his idea of God. P1 tells us that Descartes, being imperfect, cannot be the cause of anything more perfect than he, himself, is, so he certainly cannot be the cause of God. But Descartes can conclude that he cannot be the cause of his idea of God only if this idea itself is more perfect than Descartes. So the question becomes, if an idea is about something perfect, does that necessarily mean that we must, via some rule of logic, attribute perfection to the idea? How about a photograph of something perfect, say a snowflake. Is the photograph perfect because it’s topic is perfect? We don’t normally talk about ideas as being perfect (other than meaning well suited to some desired end), though we may characterize some ideas as true or correct. But does "true" always mean "perfect?" I may have the idea of a pimple on my nose, and if I actually have a pimple on my nose, then my idea is true. But, is there some rule of logic that requires I attribute perfection to my idea of the pimple on my nose? If so, I would like to know what rule of logic dictates this. Someone please tell me. Descartes hasn’t. I haven’t come across any such rule in the philosophical literature. Now, I might chose to call true ideas perfect ideas. I’m free to do so if I want to for some reason, but am I logically bound to do so? I might call ideas of perfect forms perfect ideas, but am I logically bound to do so or is this just a matter of semantics, that is, how you or I or Descartes chooses to use to word "perfect" in relation to ideas?

    Even if we were to feel compelled to attribute perfection to such ideas, does that necessarily mean that the possessor of such ideas is less perfect than the ideas themselves? Presumably, Descartes could exist without such ideas in his mind, but could they exist without his mind? And if one thing exists dependently upon another but the latter thing exists independently of the former thing, then is not the independent thing more perfect (of a less conditional existence) than the dependent thing? Descartes often reasons in just this way. For Descartes, actual existence is more perfect than existence merely as an idea. Indeed, Descartes’ third proof of God’s existence depends on this. Since Descartes, though imperfect, is at least as real as any of his ideas, perhaps he is also at least as perfect as any of his ideas. Can he be sure otherwise?

    P4, I, "Descartes, am not perfect." I suggest we agree with Descartes on this one. (I know I’m not perfect.)

    C2,"I cannot be the cause of my idea of God." This conclusion follows from P4, P1 and C1. Since there is uncertainly in P1 and C1, there is uncertainty in C2 and everything else that follows, including C5 ,"God must exist." (An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.) While God might exist and might be the cause of Descartes’ idea of God, Descartes fails to prove that this must be so.
     
    #1528     Sep 25, 2002
  9. Ahhh ... yes! Reinforcements have arrived. The Normandy invasion has begun. Forward men!
     
    #1529     Sep 25, 2002
  10. wait a sec, i thought the candleman was a true believer, but i guess he thinks god only "might" exist... doesn't say much for his faith... at least he's one step closer to reality :)
     
    #1530     Sep 25, 2002
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