Are you sure it's because of the CIPF or it's it something more devious such as the tricky worded paragraph 4 in the standard RefcoFX Client agreement that isn't in the RefcoFX CA agreement. 4. COLLATERAL. All funds, securities, currencies, and other property of Trader which RFXA or its affiliates may at any time be carrying for Trader (either individually, jointly with another, or as a guarantor of the account of any other person) or which may at any time be in its possession or control or carried on its books for any purpose, including safekeeping, are to be held by RFXA as security and subject to a general lien and right of set-off for liabilities of Trader to RFXA whether or not RFXA has made advances in connection with such securities, commodities, currencies or other property, and irrespective of the number of accounts Trader may have with RFXA. RFXA may in its discretion, at any time and from time to time, without notice to Trader, apply and/or transfer any or all funds or other property of Trader between any of Traderâs accounts. Trader hereby also grants to RFXA the right to pledge, re-pledge, hypothecate, invest or loan, either separately or with the property of other Traders, to itself as broker or to others, any securities or other property of Trader held by RFXA as margin or security. RFXA shall at no time be required to deliver to Trader the identical property delivered to or purchased by RFXA for any account of Trader. Later on in the Client Agreement it says: LENDING AGREEMENT By signing this Agreement, Trader authorizes RFXA and its affiliates to use all funds, securities, currencies and other property of Trader as specified in Paragraph 4 of the Trader Agreement. Hmm, I think this is what Refco is using to steel customer funds. The question is, is this legal. After all, I hide in a contract that if company X does something illegal, then individual A will bail them out. The courts in general will say that statement makes the whole contract NULL and void, unless the contract says something in like that if by law something is illegal, that dosn't parts of the contract stand.
FXCM*1: Welcome to FXCM's Live Chat feature. You are now chatting with an FXCM representative. How can I help you? : Hey, is the Canadian version of FXCM going to be CIPF insured??? FXCM*1: it is not FXCM*1: at this point in time FXCM*1: and I do not know of any plans in the future for that to change FXCM*1: bear in mind FXCM*1: that all client funds FXCM*1: are held with Bank of America FXCM*1: in New York FXCM*1: so it is not a Canadian bank account FXCM*1: which is why this type of insurance doesn't apply mostly : Hmm. I'm just tring to avoid another REFCOFX disaster. FXCM*1: I understand : I've lost faith in keeping my funds in the US when the US goverment/institutions do not honor individual property rights. FXCM*1: keep in mind FXCM*1: RefcoFX fell under an unregulated division of Refco Gropu FXCM*1: so there were no regulations in place FXCM*1: FXCM is fully registered with the CFTC and NFA : Property rights should not need any regualtion except the US Constitution, and common law. FXCM*1: I agree : If courts ignore the Constitution and common law, how will CFTC regualtions protect my property. My money is no safer in the US as if it were in a bank in Brazil at this point. : Oh well. I sure hope someone in the goverment get's their head screwed on right, and take the Hamilton view that if investors can't invest with firms in a matter in which they don't have to worry about someone steeling their capital that the US economy is doomed like that of many third world countries. If not, I'm thinking abount moving. : Before, someone steals my house from me. FXCM*1: I understand your concern FXCM*1: and hope you have the confidence of placing your funds with FXCM : Have a good day. FXCM*1: I am not sure if you read this FXCM*1: or not : Well, I'm still mulling that one over. FXCM*1: but we recently offered a Chat with our CEO FXCM*1: which you can read FXCM*1: at the following link : I"ve read it. FXCM*1: http://www.learncurrencytrading.com/fxforum/forumdisplay.php?f=61 FXCM*1: excellent : It seems that FXCM is doing this out of the goodness of their heart. : I don't see a huge financial reason why FXCM would want to buy customer accounts, unless they think they are buying loyalty. FXCM*1: that is a large part of it I think : Which may work for me and many other. : I do like the platform. : And this year, I've made over 120% return which means nothing unless I can get my money. FXCM*1: I see : OK. Need to get ready for church. Thanx for talking. FXCM*1: OK take care FXCM*1: my pleasure
There is a list on the http://www.cipf.ca site that is called the Independent Dealers Association -- on there you can find out which firms in Canada provide the protection that is offered by the Canadian Investor Protection Fund.
That's all and good. But the only real "good" forex dealer I see on there is REFCOFX Canada. Do you see any other decent forex dealers on the list that I am not seeing? BTW when I say "good" forex dealer, I mean one with a half way decent platform, and are trading forex in near real time.
Chat Information Chat Information FXCMÃÂ¥5: Welcome to FXCM's Live Chat feature. You are now chatting with an FXCM representative. How can I help you? : Paragraph 6 of the Traders Agreement. Can I get that in plain english??? : The Collateral and Lending Agreement : Hello, is anyone there??? FXCMÃÂ¥5: yes, FXCMÃÂ¥5: i am looking for the paragraph you are referring to : Ok. FXCMÃÂ¥5: the entire paragraph is summed up by the last sentence : As collateral for what?? For me, or for FXCM? FXCMÃÂ¥5: for the positions you have open with FXCM : Ok. So this is not an out for FXCM to say that account holders are "Creditors"? : Refco has the exact same wording in their agreement... FXCMÃÂ¥5: no, this is in reference to your funds with us for the purposes of trades you have open : Hmm. Ok. Been looking over your Trader's Agreement and Refco's Trader's agreement, and by the looks of them, they look exactly the same. But according to Refco, I've somehow loaned them money. And the only thing I can see that where I might have done it, is in their Traders Agreement under paragraph 4 of Refco's Trader agreement, which is exactly like your Paragraph 6. I want to make sure I don't end up in the same possition if I start trading with FXCM. FXCMÃÂ¥5: a huge difference between FXCM and RefcoFX is that FXCM is a regulated firm FXCMÃÂ¥5: all the divisions of Refco that filed for bankruptcy were the unregulated affiliates FXCMÃÂ¥5: a regulated firm like FXCM is required to keep money in reserve with the CFTC FXCMÃÂ¥5: and we far exceed the required amount by a greater margin than any of our competitors FXCMÃÂ¥5: http://www.cftc.gov/files/tm/fcm/tmfcmdata0508.pdf : True. But property rights are property rights, and somewhere according to Refco, I've sighned away some of my property rights. : And the only place I could have done it would have been the traders agreement. : I don't think the CFTC will be able to help me if I am foolish enouph to sign away my property rights. : Oh, well. Thanx for the info. I'll keep mulling it over.
I am continuing to evaluate them also and will post my conclusions when I have them. I am sure there are others that are good firms.
have no time to search every post on this thread but I am curious if the REFCO PRO FX clients also are caught with funds unavailable for withdrawal ? or are they considered part of REFCO Overseas LTD and perhaps having no restrictions for deposits / withdrawals etc ?