1. I'm speaking for myself, I don't represent the government, nor anybody else. 2. This is not an opinion, it's history. The entire right wing of Israeli politics OPPOSED the Oslo Accords. With the exception of a few fringe organizations like PFLP and Hamas, which was a small problem back then, the entire PLO (leftwingers, marxists, nationalists and democrats alike), where in support of the peace talks. And the overwhelming majority of Palestinians where supporting it, while the Israelis were divided at about fifty/fifty. After this failure, the PLO lost the support of Palestinians which where beginning to see them as puppets of the Israeli masters. This in turn paved the way for Hamas to gain popularity and eventually win the election. You should know by now that I don't make claims unless I can back them up with hard evidence. If you want to take this debate, let's do it, but let's do it in a relevant thread. I'd be happy to show you what the Israeli government did, as well as Arafat. The same place as we were when Israeli rockets were falling over Palestinian towns. Way up here in the cold north, trying to tell both parts to take it easy on the civilians. None of you listened, and the result is six or seven dead Israelis and a few hundred dead Palestinians. That's rockets alone, obviously you used other ways to kill each other as well. Actually we're doing pretty good per capita. Scandinavia consists of small countries, population-wise. 5,5 million in Denmark, 9 million in Sweden and less than 5 million in Norway. Germany, Italy and France are 60-80 million people in each, and USA are 300+ million people. Yet, you recognize names like Niels Bohr, Knut Hamsun (who you probably hate), Henrik Ibsen or Hannes Alfvén. Or the Copenhagen interpretation. Not sub-standard at all. In fact, per capita, Scandinavia is at the very top in the world (aside from microstate St Lucia with its two prizes): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_per_capita Ok, so we let Switzerland beat us, but that's only because we don't want to be perceived as biased A non-Nobel prize ranking shows about the same though: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/e...cap-research-development-personnel-per-capita Like I said, you're the one who brought factual errors to the debate, not the OP. I didn't even intend to join the debate, until you called me (or rather my entire country) the laughing stock of the world. As for my lack of criticism towards Israels enemies, let's put it this way; I'm sure the rockets raining over Israel are a real pain in the ass, I'm sure they scare a lot of people and make life uncomfortable, and they're completely unacceptable. But, compared to war-torn and isolated life in Gaza, it's freaking heaven. It's not my criticism that's biased, it's reality. If I restricted myself to making one single critical comment about each side every time they murdered a child, I would have to kick up my criticism towards Israel a couple of notches.
1. I'm speaking for myself, I don't represent the government, nor anybody else. I know that but you sound exactly the same, your government is silent when Israel is attacked, so are you when Israel is bashed on this forum, your government whines, moans and screams bloody murder when Israel retaliates, so do you when I respond to an Israel hater. 2. This is not an opinion, it's history. The entire right wing of Israeli politics OPPOSED the Oslo Accords. The accords were heavily favoring the palestinians demanding Israel to make virtually all concessions, mostly unilaterally. And yet despite these valid objections Israel for the sake of peace signed it and held its end of the bargain. Of course the arabs did not. Let me remind you that the palestinian militants were supposed to be disarmed, terrorism was supposed to end, instead the number of terror attacks against Israel skyrocketed, there were dozens of other commitments which the Pals completely ignored. Your blaming it all on Israel is the best proof of the hostility and bias I was talking about. trying to tell both parts to take it easy on the civilians. Bullshit, when rockets were falling on Israel you were nowhere to be found, you barely paid lip service and more often than not tried hard to justify and excuse those attacks. In fact, per capita, Scandinavia is at the very top in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_per_capita Well, it's a typical case of lies, more lies and statistics . I was talking about modern science, not ancient history. Sweden got one award in the last 27 years. Norway got 2 in the last 36 years, 6 after WWII. Tiny Israel got 9 awards in its 60 year history, the US got 82 awards after WWII. In other words during the last quarter of century you'd be all the way at the bottom. Besides dividing by the population today is statistically invalid. Israel did not have the population of 7.5 mln when it was winning those awards. It went from 600,000 to 7.5 million people in 60 years. The population of the US has quadrupled in the last 100 years while the population of the Scandinavian countries have been relatively stable. The US fought in WWII while you did not and Israel did not even exist. This must be taken into account and it would significantly degrade your rating. I'm sure the rockets raining over Israel are a real pain in the ass...But, compared to war-torn and isolated life in Gaza, it's freaking heaven. From Israel's perspective it would be a pain in the ass if they were fired at Oslo or Stockholm. But they are fired at Israeli towns and therefore to Israel they are not a pain in the ass, Israel views them as a mortal threat and a major disruption of hundreds of thousands of lives. More importantly though, it's very easy for Gazans to avoid their troubles - stop firing fucking rockets at Israel. They actually got the message loud and clear in January this year and now they have absolutely nothing to worry about. All is quiet on the southern front when Hamas polices borders and arrests terrorists.
He is haaretz readings in Obama's prize: "...In granting him the prize, the Norwegians are signaling to Obama that he should continue along his current path, that he should avoid an escalation in Afghanistan and a war against Iran; and that he should take serious steps to advance peace in the Middle East and to reign in nuclear weapons, even if there is a potential conflict between the two goals." That assessment is by a zionist author, and he agrees with many points in OP's first post. The zionists in this forum are disconnected with reality and/or are paid to post obvious propaganda, express hate towards Pals/other religions/other countries, and insult those who express an opinion they do not like about the truth. Given what they do in this forum, imagine what they do to Pals in the occupied holy land which is not theirs.
Second OpEd from Haaretz concludes: "... What has the new Nobel laureate done so far in our region? Mitchell Shmitchell, a bitter and lost struggle over settlement expansion, a bizarre struggle against the Goldstone report, a disgraceful silence about the Gaza siege, and the ultimate proof that there's nothing new under the Middle Eastern sun. It's not Obama who "can," it's Israel. Israel can twist the arms of any president. You don't want to freeze the settlements? Okay, never mind. You don't want to take responsibility for the crimes in Gaza? Okay, never mind. You don't want to end the occupation? Okay, never mind. This is not the conduct of a Nobel laureate and president. "
Israeli politicians' animosity towards any form of criticism has clouded your medias portrayal of these condemnations. No Norwegian politician has ever screamed bloody murder, and in fact they very often add that they condemn terrorism as well, every time they condemn an Israeli attack that kills a dozen innocent civilians. They do this because they know how the oversensitive sissies in the Israeli government reacts if they don't. Israel was supposed to make virtually all concessions because Israel had all the power; they occupied the entire area with the fourth strongest military power in the world. Yet, from the perspective of international laws and rights, they hardly agreed to make any concessions. From this perspective, the PLO made all the concessions. Arafat agreed to go along even with the great risk of losing his support. And he did hold up his part of the agreement, the PLO laid down their guns. The PLO was also supposed to stop other fringe organizations from attacking Israel. Before they got a fair chance at doing that, Israel assumed attacks on civilians and demolitions of random homes, making innocent people homeless and building up the hate again. Israel said this was revenge for terrorist attacks by these fringe groups, but obviously you can't hold an entire village responsible for the acts of a fringe group. That's not how you make peace, that's how you make enemies. This lead to the terrorist attacks on Israel skyrocketing, which again lead to more attacks from Israel. So one can say that the single most destructive issue during these years was the attacks by fringe groups. That's attacks on Palestinians by Israeli settlers as well mind you, who also very much wanted to stop the negotiations. Did you honestly believe Arafat would be able to singlehandedly stop every single group from day one? No, obviously no one did. All parties knew this was going to be very hard and take time, everybody knew there would still be attacks. Yet, the Israeli government seized the very first chance they got to end the peace process, by attacking innocent people and infuriating palestinians. This is what makes it so clear that they didn't want peace to begin with; it was all a show for the international media. I'd ask you to document this claim, but I know that as always, you're talking out of your ass rather than reality. The amount of factual errors in the above statement is stunning. Look, I'm not interested in this contest. Let's just agree that by western standards, Scandinavia is as sub-standard in science and technology as Israel is honestly trying to achieve peace. I'm sure we can agree on that These rockets killed six or seven Israelis from 2005 to 2008. During that same period, traffic accidents killed a couple of thousand Israelis. Per each 10 000 cars in Israel, there's 2,7 deaths. That means that even for people who live in Sderot or Ashkelon, the risk of dying by driving the car is gargantuan compared to that of getting hit by terrorist rockets. The risk of being murdered by a fellow Israeli is even much greater. Let's face it, those rockets, although completely unacceptable, are a major propaganda hit from your perspective. They're not much more than that. Terrorists will -always- find ways to attack their perceived enemies, no matter what Hamas or Israel does. The quiet will only last until they figure out new ways to harm Israel. The only way to stop terrorism is to remove their reasons for attacking. One can start by halting the murdering of innocent people and demolitions of innocent peoples homes, which is almost always the motivating factor for a terrorist. Seriously though, let's leave these issues for a more relevant thread. This thread is about why Obama got the peace prize. Can you mention one single person who has done more for peace the past year?
The amount of factual errors in the above statement is stunning. The only factual error is that the US won 290 awards after WWII, not 87 as I said earlier That in the last 25 yeas Norway and Sweden together got 3 Nobel prizes while Israel alone got 7 is not in dispute No Norwegian politician has ever screamed bloody murder, Israel is considering recalling its Norwegian ambassador and you keep repeating like a parrot that Norway is not hostile. Get a clue. Israel was supposed to make virtually all concessions because Israel had all the power; And that explains Israel's reluctance to sign the Accords. Yet, for the sake of piece they did and held their end of the deal. in fact After the signing of the agreements, Israel refrained from building new settlements although the Oslo agreements stipulated no such ban And [Arafat] did hold up his part of the agreement, the PLO laid down their guns. According to the Israeli government... Palestinians and 15 Israeli soldiers dead. The PLO was also supposed to stop other fringe organizations from attacking Israel. Fringe groups, huh? Your using the word "fringe" 50 times in one post does not make it so. Here is the list of the groups that rejected the Accords because their own charters refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist in Palestine: Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. These are not fringe group, they represent at least half of the palestinian population and most of its political landscape. Calling these groups "fringe" merely proves your dishonesty. Did you honestly believe Arafat would be able to singlehandedly stop every single group from day one? LOL, just like I predicted, when it comes to arab violations and arab violence you are full of apologies and excuses. Guess what, it's not a matter of my beliefs, Arafat signed a promise to do just that. The expectations were realistic and reasonable that he'd do his best and yet he was not even trying, he was instead encouraging those attacks, the number of attacks skyrocketed, not decreased. Besides, given the situation in the West Bank and Gaza today it's clear that stopping those attacks was quite DOABLE. Terrorists will -always- find ways to attack their perceived enemies, no matter what Hamas or Israel does. LOL, have you completely frozen your brain? Hezbollah has learned its lesson and has been quiet for 3.5 years, Hamas has been quiet for a year, moreover they've been policing the borders and arresting rocket throwers from other terrorist groups. The only way to stop terrorism is to remove their reasons for attacking. Pull your head out of your ass. the reason is in their charters - it's called Israel (or zionist entity if you prefer).
The past year is not the criteria for the prize. The lifetime of accomplishments is and the committee had lots of worthy candidates. That's not to say that Obama has accomplished anything during the last year, he most certainly has not. Besides your I am sure well-meaning Norwegian idiots have really hurt Obama. His advisors are desperately scrambling to minimize the damage and negative effect this award will have on his administration and his chances of re-election in 2012.
*You stated that our populations had remained stable the past hundred years. Reality is that these populations have more than doubled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Norway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark *You stated that if we only consider the past quarter century we "would be way at the bottom." In reality we would still rank above most western nations: Norway: 2/5 = 0,4 Denmark: 2/5,5 = 0,36 Germany: 26/82 = 0,32 France: 12/65 = 0,18 *You stated that the USA had received 81 awards since WWII, which, as you admitted, was wrong. *You stated that "Israel did not have the population of 7.5 mln when it was winning those awards". In reality, it did. Prior to 2002, Israel had only four awards, of which three was for peace. So yes, Israel had that population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country#Israel *You stated that "The US fought in WWII while [Norway] did not". In reality, we did, and we were in fact in a greater disadvantage; we were occupied, while the USA was safe far away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Norway_by_Nazi_Germany In short, nearly every single claim you made was factually incorrect. So the fact that Israel is considering recalling its Norwegian ambassador proves that Norway screamed bloody murder? You cannot possible be this dense. Israel has a long history of overreacting completely to even the friendliest criticism. It's a strategy, to stop the international community from handling them as any other apartheid state would be handled.
I'm going to give you the last word on the Israel/Palestine issue (or rather continue it in a relevant thread). Let's focus on Obama in this thread from now on. Again, facts are irrelevant for you. I've already quoted Nobel for you once, but I'll do it again: According to Nobel's will, the Peace Prize should be awarded to the person who:"during the preceding year [...] shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize#Background This is Obama. Nobody else is even close to have done as much or as good work for "fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies (or rather nuclear arms in our day) and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses (The UN). In the following post, I made a list of some of his achievements so far: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2601234#post2601234 So tell me, who has done more this year? Although it might seem like it's hurting him now, time will tell if it really will. However, the very chance that it might end up hurting him is enough for me to agree that they should not have given him the award quite yet. The award is not undeserved, it just carries too much weight at this moment.
Too much nonsense and spin destroyer. Let's just get a few facts straight: 1. In the last 25 years Norway and Sweden have won 3 noble prizes combined while Israel alone has won 7. That proves the decline of scientific and technological research in Scandinavia which I pointed out earlier in this thread. 2. As we both agreed it was Israel who was required by the Oslo Accords to make the lion's share of concessions. And as we also agreed the Arabs failed to meet even the minimal commitments they had made. The number of terror attacks skyrocketed after the signing of the Accords and no matter how many bogus excuses and explanations you may come up with, it was not what Israel had bargained for. 3. The second lebanon war destroyed the will of Hezbollah to fire rockets at Israel. The gaza war taught a similar lesson to Hamas which not only completely stopped firing rockets but actively prevents other terrorist organizations from attacking Israel.