Ratigan nails how "dark pools" rip off traders: Dark pool trading = 10% of volume

Discussion in 'Wall St. News' started by ByLoSellHi, Oct 28, 2009.

  1. There is also this from Matt Taibbi
    http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2009/10/27/goldman-lobbies-senate-says-full-transparency-sucks/

    Oct. 27 2009 - 11:58 am | 5,965 views | 4 recommendations | 39 comments

    Goldman Lobbies Senate, Says Full Transparency Sucks

    ALTERNATIVE TRADING PLATFORMS AND THEIR EFFECT ON LIQUIDITY

    The equity markets provide perhaps the best example of a highly evolved complex ecosystem, where care must be taken to preserve the benefits that have evolved from competition and innovation…

    Crucially, liquidity is what helps to solve this mismatch problem. Market makers that see large volumes are best positioned to match differing size transactions. In traditional exchange trading, bids and offers are public, and this transparency helps buyers and sellers to achieve the best price.

    For some market participants, however, the openness and transparency of the equity market actually mean they are unlikely to achieve the best price. The risk, particularly for large transactions such as those undertaken by pension funds or large mutual funds (where most small investors have most of their equity exposure), is that other market participants will use this transparency to undercut the intended transactions.

    From a Goldman Sachs lobbying document (emphasis mine)

    effective-reg-part-4.pdf (application/pdf Object).

    This is from a lobbying document Goldman has been passing around the Senate on financial regulatory reform in general.

    There is a lot of crazy stuff in this document, but the most notable is probably this passage, in which Goldman pooh-poohs the notion that complete transparency in markets creates accurate prices.

    Instead, the bank argues that an over-the-counter market in which big traders like Goldman get to do deals in the shadows in “dark pools” without the retail investor having any knowledge of what the hell is going on is somehow better for everybody, that this somehow produces better prices. Of course the reality is that the two-tiered system creates one pool of fools whose every movement is visible to every animal on the Serengeti, and another pool of giant bloodthirsty carnivores who get to walk around invisible, picking off the dik-diks one by one.

    Everyone I showed this to had the same reaction — “I can’t believe they said this out loud.”

    One friend of mine put it this way: say Goldman buys a big block of stock from a pension fund in a dark pool. Now they have shares they want to get out of and flatten out their risk. So where do they sell? Well, a big chunk of it might go to the retail schmuck who has no idea what’s going on. He’s buying 1000 shares of whatever at $28, not knowing that Goldman has another 50,000 shares to go. Next thing you know, the schmuck’s shares are at $27.

    Goldman salutes this process, noting the magic of so-called “non-displayed liquidity.” What the rest of us would describe as “hiding shit from the rabble,” Goldman calls “separating liquidity from information about the transaction.” You almost have to admire the sheer balls of this sort of propaganda:

    God bless this company. They’re never boring, that’s for sure.
     
    #11     Oct 28, 2009
  2. This whole thread is idiocy. Dark pool transactions happen at the same NBBO (the same price as the "regular" markets.) If a large investor wants to sell a block of stock that would drop the stock if they just dumped it on the NYSE, why not see if they can cross it in a dark pool and meet a buyer there?

    Taibbi is obviously an idiot... If you're worried about all the HFT traders (his last brilliant article), why would you not want to be able to hide your order flow in the dark pools which HFT algos can't access? Please be consistent if you're going to complain about things people! lol



     
    #12     Oct 28, 2009
  3. no. they dont.
     
    #13     Oct 28, 2009
  4. yes. they do.

    they are often reported late which is why you might not think so.
     
    #14     Oct 28, 2009
  5. ammo

    ammo

    for every million share crossed in the dark pool , there are 2 sides, there is no reason the shouldnt have to peice it out and test the waters just like everyone else, this all started when banks were shuffling currencies and the exchanges didnt have big enough players to accomodate them, the banks would and still do ,just cross them, can you imagine the amount of currency that is exchanged between global banks everyday, pushing over into the stock market was never necessary , there has always been enough liquidity in the exchanges for this
     
    #15     Oct 28, 2009



  6. What happens with the small trader (regular market) if they (buy), THEN a big block is trade in the dark pool for lower bid price?
     
    #16     Oct 28, 2009
  7. jd7419

    jd7419

    I suspect they don't as well. Anyone out there who knows the answer to this please chime in.
     
    #17     Oct 28, 2009
  8. So what serious issues concern you?
     
    #18     Oct 29, 2009
  9. vanv0029

    vanv0029

    The Nazi takeover of Austria in the mid 1930s was
    actually financed by a situation similar to the current
    AIG and large investment banks (or maybe more
    Madoff) melt down. Phoenix Insurance company that
    was the largest Austrian life insurance company was
    milked to provide the funds to finance the Nazi party in
    Austria around 1934. The story is documented in the
    magazine Math Intelligencer June 2004 issue by
    the quants of the day. The mathematicians who did
    the quant work for the insurance company left
    records explaining the blow up and bankruptcy
    of Phoenix Insurance and use of the funds. There was
    trading and it was kept secret.
     
    #19     Oct 29, 2009
  10. Occam

    Occam

    You make some good points. Another issue is, who "owns" the information about the fact that a large mutual fund wants to sell 10 million shares of a given stock? By putting the order in a visible market, they would be "giving" this info away for free. Why should a mutual fund give the trading community free info that can be used against the fund?

    On the other hand, with the (apparent) high quality of algorithms available to buy siders these days, there's no reason why they can't just split their order up into many pieces and cross it over time.

     
    #20     Oct 29, 2009