Random Rants and All the other Goodies 2 - No, not a Gann journal...

Discussion in 'Journals' started by WDGann, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. LOL... it's funny after 1 month and a half of stopping my journal and my frequent posts about random stuff... like hedge fund, Gann, Van Tharp, system trading and etc. etc....

    I've been get some appreciation about my past journal (I don't know what they appreciated about that thread, though... they must be crazy). Also, some guy saw me make real-time market calls in ET Chat and wanted me to randomly rant again... What am I a freagin' guru? LOL... please trust me, you shouldn't look up to me... I think you're crazy but I know I'm worse... c'mon I'm a trader, I've gotta be crazy...

    But anyways... going to start the journal... just like the last one... it's going to be in a random time frame... I'll write what ever I like and when ever I like.

    I just hope this lasts longer than the last one... 96-7 posts on the last one... I guess I'll shoot for a 100+ this time...

    I'm planning (which is never followed with my journal...) to make it part-Episodic Epistemological Epics, part-surf report, and mostly ranting...

    Please feel free to respond or post in this thread... it's an open rant journal...

    Please, participate in the poll above... LOL...
  2. Ultimately, we do business with a broker. I don't like them, but I do business with them. Whether a "broker" or a "broker"age firm, we have to go through them. I was a futures broker for 1 day at a Churn in Los Angeles, CA called Empire Financial. I think they have a Beverly Hills, CA address.

    But anyways, to any home party my non-trader friends take me out to, there's someone in the industry. Clerks, Brokers, Programmers, Bankers and etc.. My friends, simply puts me with the brokers or clerks together. It goes on like:

    Friend, "Hey, meet "Mr. Broker" he's also in the trading thing like you!!!"

    Me, "Hey, I'm "WDGann" so what do you do?"

    Mr. Broker, "Oh, I'm a trader but I'm not in the floor. What about you?"

    Me, "Really? I trade too. What do you usually trade?"

    Mr. Broker, "Bonds and all the Interest Rates."

    Me, "Do you find Arbs between them or just up right? I'm up right trader."

    Mr. Broker, ".... .... .... .... I work for PFG... ... ... "

    Me, "Oh, you're a broker..."

    Mr. Broker, "...."

    Me, "..."

    There are a lot of conversation that goes like this. Just to boost your egos up, Traders are in top of the food chain in this business. Then there's the programmers and researchers. Then there's the clerks. Then there's the brokers. Actually, clerks are considered lower than brokers in general but there's a reason to why a broker is lower.

    A broker is a sales man. They are a completely separated entiity of this business. For clerks, it's 1/2 and 1/2. They are like an assistance for the floor or a trader. Some go down to build networks to become a trader at a firm. Some actually build market feel and trade well. Especially, in the floor, you get to see good traders trade. That alone is a great experience.

    Most guys there aren't there to do that or seem to be doing that but anyways, they're lower than brokers.

    A broker stays a broker. They can never crossover to the trading side unless they cut the broker side off. It's a tough thing and brokers do trade but they eventually end up breakeven or loss with there trades. OK, I might have placed them in a wrong place. They are not below clerks, they're out of rank.

    Some brokers do try hard and a lot clerks in CME & CBOT are bunch of crack heads (some clerks are working hard to get a status) so it might not be correct to place brokers below.

    "It became long so I'll write the other half some other time..."
  3. Well, market ended so I'll continue...


    Brokers envy traders. There's no doubt about the fact that most of them calls themselves traders outside. I really believe that most brokers want to be traders. That's how I ended up in a brokerage firm for one day. I thought that it would be a step into the trading business.

    Well, once a broker gets into the firm and starts doing sales well, they start getting excess income enabling themselves to trade. Well, the actually trade with their discounted rate. Obviously, they lose money. They do sales hard to get the money back, and they lose money again. They start to feel the Holy-Grail urge and they envy traders for somehow having it.

    During the sales, they call themselves a hot shot trader. They would give fake experiences about their own trading and they gain temporary trust from people. They tell that they are traders to friends and they get a small form of envy of trading well.

    I actually had one friend not in the business, introduce me to a broker. She, the friend, told me that he's a broker but he's very smart and trades well on his own too. She thought it would be nice to have us meet, but the result was a disaster, at least for him. We met and we talked about trading.

    From my looks (I have that Asian baby face, I get ID-ed for my cigarettes constantly), I guess he thought I was a guy wanting to get into the business. He started telling me about trading is an art, it's not about what you use but the psychology of it, and blah blah blah. It was basically was about Van Tharp and Mark Douglas's material.

    Well, I felt a little awkwardness with how presented it. I started asking questions, then I started commenting on what he said. Soon he got overwhelmed by the questions and started to shut up. Well, it was good for me, I impressed my friend (a girl, :D didn't get laid from that though :( ). But that guy had a skirming kinda face( like this: :( ) on all the time. My impression was he was embarrassed but it also looked like he felt guilty.

    From that impression, I guess this guy wants to become a trader. His social standards expects him to be one because he's claimed to but he's not. I guess a lot of brokers have a personal-vendetta with what they do. Some guys know that they have lost the competition of becoming a full-time trader.

    Though, he was a smart guy. Early 30s and he knew a lot. I'm sure he's read through a lot of books and went through a lot seminars. Technically, he had more than enough knowledge to trade. But I guess he can't figure out why he can't trade well.

    But it's better off that way from my sense. So let's say, I get him into a prop. firm, will he make it? Probably not. He didn't have enough desire to become one on his own to start off with. Now, professional traders are the traders. Desire and commitment is without a doubt there. Within traders, there's competition and it's a survival game. He definitely won't last.

    For me:

    Brokers = Guys who lost the game of trading before they even got in.
  4. NYNY


    "Brokers envy traders"

    This is classic. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of friends that are or were brokers. They really are just a salesman.

    But even worse: They are trying to sell you something they don't even own.

    There are "money managers" who usually have MBAs, are between 30 and 50 years old and really try to make their clients money.

    Then there are people like my friends who are "brokers." They are usually in their twenties and some have a Bachelors. Their job is to take care of their clients but that is not their objective. They all want to churn the shit out of their clients(suckers) accounts and make as much money as possible. They act like big shots, go tanning three times a week and buy BMWs(which some can't afford). But they are characters. Most of them can not trade. But their are exceptions. Some of them do successfully make the transition... but its apples and oranges for them. They have to unlearn everything they thought was true about the market. But if there are brokers that are still above water and making their clients happy... then they deserve A LOT OF recognition. Hopefully one day the word BROKER won't be a bad word.

    ...my little rant of the day.
  5. gann,

    you are a talented writer with unique insight. i am enjoying this thread !


  6. I agree to some points. Here's a few more from that... I did miss a lot of points that I didn't consider so I'll add a few more.

    1. There are who made a successful transition. Larger names are Brain Gelber or Paul Tudor Jones from Market Wizard. Though, the nature of brokers in the floor and off the floor different.

    2. Trader or broker, we all start for money. We want more money, that's why we start trading. I've never met a guy who "starts" from the psychological and self-development standpoint. They see the reality and the nature of trading and that's how we get into the the psychology.

    3. I think that hardcore churners are actually molded. They pass the "wickedness" down to new brokers and mold them into a churn machine.

    But funny thing is they seem to be very insecure. They always want a lot of people around them, want people praising him and showing off how much money they made. Their lifestyle and how they act are like what you here in True Hollywood Story on E! or that VH1 show. The place I went to, the top churner took the new boys to his house and drank till late at night, almost every night.

    I really wonder how they are when they are alone when people are not around. I can say this with a lot young and new traders around me too. I'm sure it's good in a sense because of the motivation of keeping and expanding that lifestyle. But we get old and at sometime... it catches up to us...

    ... I guess I can relate that to the old floor traders wanting to do other business. I guess it's really hard to be a floor trader when your body starts aging. Even though, you have the wisdom and experience, they see young and energetic traders come in trading in the pits. They seem to connect the physical aging and trading ability from insecurity. That might be one reason...

    Any how... brokers just might like to churn... they know that broker has a bad name so they just might call themselves traders...

    As long as they rely on sales and can't take 100% responsibility with their "Trades" or calls they can't become traders...
  7. Brokers are like car salesman, traders are the drivers (some are race car drivers).
  8. most brokers fail as traders due to a poor relationship with money. they do not internalize the mindset needed to succeed trading the markets. the mind of an accomplished trader is quite the opposite of a broker. in fact, it is often totally against the very nature of those drawn to the "financial services industry".

  9. Flow


  10. NYNY


    But with trading our job IS to make money. A brokers job is to make their clients money(or at least not lose it) but that is definately not their objective.
    #10     Jan 7, 2003