Quran is Zionist

I try to tell everyone to think, beyond that...what can be done?

I believe in freedom of religion and freedom for people to think what people want.

Actions can be punishable, but thinking or believing???...especially in private and alone?

I don't think you will actually get too far suggesting to any religious person that the scriptures they are reading are contradictory, etc.

People have to on their own resolve these issues. The Sufi faith, which is under of the umbrella of Islam is quite peaceful.

Are they practicing their spin on Islam correctly or not?

Who can say, but I can look to their actions and say they are peaceful. My own opinion is Sufism focuses on the spiritual aspect of Islam which is why they are peaceful, and the fundamentalist Muslims focus on non spiritual aspects of Islam which is why they are aggressive and fundamentalist in their actions. Same true for Christianity, where we have seen peaceful and spiritual Christians, and warlike fundamentalist crusaders in Christianity.

I can look to the history of both Islam and Christianity, and see crusades and bloody converting people to their own respective belief system.

Convert or die, confess or die, etc.

Is that what God wants?

I'm in no position to say what God wants...but I do find almost universally that killers don't want to be killed, thieves don't want to be robbed, liars don't like being lied to...so I do think there is a universal human concept of what is actually goodly, if not Godly.

 

Your belief in freedom of belief is admirable, and I share that principle along with you.

But I never suggested or said that the Quran was contradictory. If you look at my first reply to you, I actually said that it wasn't contradictory, as there is no single verse that directly/indirectly forbids the re-emergency of Israel as a nation with a land, yet THERE IS a verse that directly prophesies the re-emergence of Sons of Israel as a single group/nation, which I provided and gave other verses as proof of my interpretation's logical soundness.

What I said is that what most Muslims believe, and what the Quran asks them to believe, are contradictory. In effect, I was saying that Muslims are not truly following the Quran if they are against the existence of Israel.

You know what's funny?

Muslims, in addition to the Quran, also have the Hadith, which are basically the oral law/sayings of Muhammad during his lifetime which were transmitted by memory of his followers and then recorded in writing 150 years later.

Muslims have a whole legalistic process of verifying each Hadith's truthfulness, by way of checking sources, author, etc.

There is one widely-accepted hadith, which basically proves my claim that Muslims are not truly following the Quran. I quote:

The Holy Prophet (saw) said :
The Jews split into 71 groups, one will enter paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups , 71 will enter Hell and 1 will enter Paradise.
By Him in Whose Power is my life, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.

 

As always, you chose not to complete the verses. Below the complete one:

"1. Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

2. We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."

3. O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

Source(s):

Surah 17. Isra', The Night Journey, Children Of Israel"

 

"What I said is that what most Muslims believe, and what the Quran asks them to believe, are contradictory."

Same problem. We could find out through asking most Muslims what most Muslims believe.

The Quran itself asks nothing. The Quran is just a book of words, whose meaning is subject to interpretation by the reader.

My guess is that some preacher of Islam, who is working from their own interpretation, of just parroting the interpretation of someone else tells followers what to believe the Quran should mean to the followers.

I see you are still quoting some translation of some translation of some guess as to what Muhammed actually means. Useless.

So the belief system doesn't come from the Quran, it comes from the people who preach their own spin on the Quran to followers, based on their personal interpretation is of whatever version of the Quran they are saying is the source of their beliefs.

We don't have recording of what Muhammed said, we don't have writings of what Muhammed said in the original, we just have interpretations.

Does the Constitution say anywhere how the Constitution should be read and interpreted?

Nope.

Is there unequivocal agreement on the Constitution? Nope.

Is there complete agreement by the different sects if Islam about what the Quran says, when to take it literally, when to take it figuratively?

Nope.

Could Muhammed be speaking to the people of his time only, and not have intended for his words to be followed by people more than a thousand years later? Is any particular passage to be taken word for world in a fundamentalist manner, or figuratively?

Could Muhammed have been in referring to the infidel and enemies for future generations to be the own heart and mind of the believers of God? Meaning that like so many other religions, that talk about the need to focus on God, and the real infidel, the real sinner to address is within, and not without?

Could politically driven people learned through watching other religions that it can be very effective and expedient to hijack the need of the people for order, to use the local religion, spin it to their needs, and essentially pervert the real intention of the prophet who began a particular religion?

Again, you suggestion that the Quran is Zionism, is just your own belief...or the presentation of the belief of someone else, and not grounded in any true fact in evidence.

Zionism itself is debated hotly in Judaism by different sects as to what it means...and now you are proposing that someone knows that the Quran is Zionist?

"Muslims, in addition to the Quran, also have the Hadith, which are basically the oral law/sayings of Muhammad during his lifetime which were transmitted by memory of his followers and then recorded in writing 150 years later."

Oh, so humans pass via memory for 6 generations before it is written down by another human...then translated who knows how many times and that is the foundation of your suggestion that the Quran is Zionist?

I'd love to see such type of evidence presented in a US court of law as the foundation for some claim being true or false.

I also see that you have ignored the issue regarding faith in scriptures as the only true means to have God reveal the real truth of scriptures.

"which basically proves my claim that Muslims are not truly following the Quran."

Logically, I have shown what that is not a true statement. It may be true, it may be false, but since have no way to know what Muhammed actually meant, all we have are different interpretations and spins by a reader of whatever version of the Quran they are reading, or listening to.

 

Sameeh, go be a good muslim, and support the existence of the modern, free state of Israel as your holy text commands you to. Take your fraudulent "palestinian" identity and go back to egypt and jordan where you cockroaches came from.

 

As always? As in, you've actually debated me enough times to say that I "as always" choose not to complete the verses? This is the first time you and I have ever spoken to each other directly.

Besides, how does this disprove anything I've said or "complete" the verses? I've quoted the exact same verses, so I don't understand your contention.

 

You seem to be ignoring what I say. As I said before, I totally agree with you on the points you've raised, but I really don't care whether the Quran is false, true, how it's interpreted, correctly or not, etc. What matters is HOW most Muslims interpret it, whether most Muslims consider it true, etc. For instance, most Muslims would highly disagree with you if you spoke to them with an open mind like that and told them that it's foolish to believe what was written down of his sayings 150 years after Muhammad's death.

THEY believe, and that's all that matters.
To give you an example, there were instances when individual Muslims were put to death under Shariah for disbelieving in Sunnah (the sayings written down 150 years after Mo's death), let alone the Quran.

 

I doubt most Muslims care what the words say on their own, or if they spend time trying to figure out for themselves what the words actually mean...theirs is a culture and religion that looks to their clerics and leaders to tell them what the words mean. It is a top down run organization, like so many other religions.

With the degree of blind hatred I see in Muslims for Jews, and Jews for Muslims, I doubt that Muslim Clerics are going to take the position that the Quran is Zionist.

Oh, I fully understand that my point of view would not be well received by many of the fundamentalist Muslims. My point of view is not well received by fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist anything actually...

The Sufism followers are under attack by the fundamental extremist Muslims in Pakistan for their peaceful and spiritual interpretation of books of Islam.

See video in link below:

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011...69532117/sufism-under-attack-in-pakistan.html

 

Moderators, please add this post to the original post as the first in order whole leaving the original content second in order, so that the changes can be followed.


If anyone can, then debate the proof I provided below and provide evidence to the contrary, so that the truth can be established.


As you will see below, the majority of the translations of the Quran into English (and into other languages, from the source language - Old Arabic - in which it was written down) are not to be trusted, whether politically motivated or unintentionally, at least in regards to the verses below. Likewise for the Gospels - for the Gospels I will provide evidence at the end of this post, for the Hebrew Bible I do not have proof, but I'd be careful regarding it too, given both the Quran and the Gospels being translated in a way which completely changes the meanings of the original words.


Here is a website with a full copy of Quran translated WORD BY WORD - http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? - from Arabic to English, and the webmasters have done a great favor to all of us by showing all the other places in the Quran where the same Arabic word is used (which can be accessed by clicking on the word) so that by seeing the same Arabic word within each context/verse in the Quran, the proper meaning can be arrived at.


Interestingly, the same site provides the same (mis)translations, including the front page translation it provides at www.quran.com, and the 7 popular English translations at http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp (click on "English Translation" on the left menu). You can also access https://www.islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an and see dozens of translations provided, the majority of which mistranslate the verse 17:104 in the Quran to say "Hereafter" or "Afterlife" or "World to come" (Judgement Day), while given the context and wording in previous verses, it should be translated as "last/final of the warnings", as you will see below.


Here is the proof, word by word, as can be referenced in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?


Click on drop down menu and find the Surah 17 (chapter 17) and Ayahs (verses) 4 thru 8 and then 104, and compare the Arabic words God used in each verse:

Read verse 4. Then, in verse 5, notice the key Arabic word "wadu" (promise/warning). Continue to verse 6. Then, in verse 7, notice the TWO Arabic key words "wadu" (promise/warning) and "l-akhirati" (the last [second] of the promises/warnings). Read verse 8. Now, jump to verse 104, where God used the same Arabic words - "l-akhirati" and "wadu" - and also the Arabic word "lafifan" (which when you click on it, you see the meanings of "entwined [of multiple parts]/thick foliage/wound around each other") to say the Israelites (of which Jews, which historically also included some other tribes [Benjamin, Simon, Levi at the least], are the remaining, identifiable today tribe) will be brought back to the Promised Land (as they were in the verse 6), after the last ("l-akhirati") promise/warning ("wadu") comes to pass, with the last in-gathering being from out of many nations (entwined of/from multiple peoples/nations) in which they were living in their exile from the Promised Land. So, in effect, the last promise/warning lasted for almost 1900 years (Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Romans).


Notice, it doesn't talk about the 10 Lost Tribes (some of which partly remained with Judah and Benjamin, like Simon and Levi), who were exiled by Assyria and were lost to history, assimilating to the various populations of the Middle East and beyond, and losing their distinct identity as Israelites.


Also notice, that in verse 6, the first warning is talking about the Babylonian Captivity, from which the tribe of Judah (and the other tribes included in it) returned, which verse 6 obviously is talking about.


We can also corroborate the above proof with:

1) history, which is undeniable, and which shows the return of Jews as a "mixed group", "out of various nations" back to Holy Land, and which shows Israel withstanding and defeating a multitude of Arabic nations who declared war on it and tried to invade it multiple times in its short history, beginning with its birth, which could only be by the decree of God;

2) logic, looking at the other verses and then at 17:104, it could only make sense if it was prophesying the future return of Jews back to Israel.

3) confirmation in the Bible. The Bible prophesies a future return of Jews back to Israel. Read Deuteronomy 4:27, 28:64, 28:36 and Quran 2:97 and many other verses like it throughout it.

 

LOL, (not counting the current post) Can I ask why you have not made a post on this website since October of 2016?

Also, why are you bumping a thread from 8 years ago? The other participants in this thread have not been on this site since 2011. The odds are slim that you will hear back from them.

Just curious, what other profile names do you have?

Hey, since you are going down memory lane and bumping 8 year old threads, could you do me a favor? Check in on AK Forty Seven and Ricter. It would be so nostalgic to hear from them again. If only I knew where they went