ART: >The genuinely faithful are too busy practicing their own >faith to waste time in the judgment of others and their >respective belief systems. ART, by your logic you just eliminated yourself from the "genuinely faithful" group. By stating a condition that one must meet to be "genuinely faithful" (not judging other belief systems) you have very directly judged those that DO spend time in the judgement of others by stating that they aren't genuine. LOL JB
Spec: >I do. I find it a lot more "insane". No problem. We just disagree on a insignificant point of conversation. However, perhaps by the end of this post you will at least understand why *I* find it no more insane. >Surely you don't believe that two beliefs that are >likely to be false as equally as likely to be false, >do you? I do not. >"Heaven" is more or less the same as "life after death"; >at least that's the vague way it's described when christians >are pressed a bit about it. It is not desribed in any "vague" way in the bible. Select verses from Revelations Chapters 21 and 22 (KJ version)... ****************************************** 021:002 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 021:003 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 021:004 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 021:007 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 021:009 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 021:010 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 021:011 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 021:012 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 021:013 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 021:014 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 021:015 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 021:016 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 021:017 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 021:018 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 021:019 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 021:020 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 021:021 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 021:023 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 022:001 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 022:002 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ******************************************* >I don't remember anything ever being said about >"streets of gold" in my days as a christian. I highlighted the passage above for you.(021:021) >Life after death and 72 virgins is quite specific, >and a lot easier to "see through". I find the detailed descriptions above to be no less specific than the 72 virgins -- it even tells how how the *foundations* are garnished. >Get it? I'll turn the question back to you -- do you now get why I find the specificity of the virgins to be no more unbelievable than the specific names above each gate of the holy city and how many types of fruit the tree of life bears? JB
i would be! i was BORN a scientist.. ie I have a brain. i am a master logician. that is my calling. :-/
>1. Do you think if you had been born in a tribal >community in Brazil with no exposure to science, >that you would be a scientist? I would not know the term, but yes, I would have been a scientist. From a very young age I realized that I had a mind that was full of questions -- answers derived though anything other than the scientific method often proved out to be BS and thus (without any exposure to scientific methods) I became a young scientist. JB
The genuinely faithful know you to be wrong in your conclusion. It is by YOUR logic that you find flaw, not mine. Even if it were a tenant of one's faith to criticize other faiths, they would be too busy participating in this criticism to actually judge the faith of other's. To judge is to evaluate, to decide, and to conclude. If it is a tenant of faith to criticize or condemn other faiths, judgment is not required in the process of acting on that faith. Just as a bigot doesn't really judge the object of his bigotry, he enacts punishment or criticism without any real judgment. The type of judgment you speak of requires no judicial faculty, simply a Pavlov's dog response to adopted dogma. Main Entry: judg·ment Variant(s): or judge·ment /'j&j-m&nt/ Function: noun The process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing.
Oh, okay. Gotcha. A fair point. I was talking based my own experiences. I went through a lot of these "nature of heaven" (and hell) debates with christians a while ago. Most were content to retreat to a vague sort of afterlife. Certainly I can't remember one that claimed to flat out believe to a letter the description provided above.
Well, umm.... I guess you're having too much fun... but maybe one day you might try the rational basis? (Works pretty well!) To me, obvoiusly the only reasoning you're saying this, is because you're forced to do so to protect your own religious beliefs. There's all manner of apparent absurdities that can suddenly acquire a valid cause for consideration when one begins thinking this way. Well, like I said, you're having too much of a good time with what you're doing, so I guess there's no great reason for you to stop.
ART: >The genuinely faithful know you to be >wrong in your conclusion. Ooooofffff coooourseee theeeeeeyyyyy dooooo. (wink, wink) >It is by YOUR logic that you find flaw, not mine. I didn't present any logic ART I only used yours. Why so defensive? JB