What is a trader? Before I begin I'd like to say that I do not know everything. My beliefs are based on the things I have learned so far. There is a possibility that I may have interpreted things incorrectly, so I encourage others to correct me if I am wrong. I'm going to try and be brief answering your questions. If you need me to elaborate on some things please feel free and ask. Just because one merely does the action of buying and selling security does not make him a trader. I believe a true trader has reached a certain psychological level. There are traders out there with different kind of methodologies. Their approach to the market may be different, but they have similar traits. It appears to me that traders have a true passion for trading. It isn't mainly monetary, but I think traders just want to master their craft. With any endeavor, people will get knocked down, but it is those with persistence and determination that get back up and reach higher grounds. Traders also have a positive attitude of things, and they are willing to take responsibility for their own actions. In relating to their craft. I see traders having no attachments to money what so ever. The number in their account is just a scorecard. If the score is good, they know they're doing something good. If the score is bad, then they know there's something lacking within themself. So they are not affected by their everyday gains and losses. They understand that profit and loss is part of their system just like any other business. A business man's goal is to minimize expense, and maximize profits. That's what a trader tries to do. A trader is at peace sitting in front of his screens. He waits patiently for certain patterns to arise. When these patterns occur, he follows a plan he has already established. Even if his mind was cluttered with emotions, he knows he can't take trades he normally wouldn't take because he has trading rules that prohibits him from taking trades on a whim. I've heard someone say that success is a journey, not a destination. I think traders are on a journey to improving on their craft. They understand that to become a better trader it starts from inside. This is how I see a trader. As far as how I see myself. To be honest, I haven't done much thinking in that area. I think it's a good time to begin it don't you think? Well I do know about the psychological aspects to trading, but it's always easier said than done. Due to my situation I cannot trade right now. Besides, I'm not ready yet. I'm using a government computer right now, and I'm not allowed to use them for financial gain. So with that, how am I going to test to see if I do have all the psychological aspects, because you can't tell till you bet... with real money. I got into craps. I developed a system, which has a positive expectancy. I implemented my knowledge of trading to craps. I understand that my system can result in a string of losses. Some nights I may have a net loss, but it's overall that counts. In the beginning I was a bit emotional from the wins and losses that I encountered. Eventually I got my satisfaction from following my plan. It came down to a point that I was looking at the dices rolling, and I didn't care whether I won or loss. I knew I was ready to trade. I thought I had what it takes to succeed in the markets. Then something wonderful happened. After some of the money I have made, I became fearful of losing my profits. I was actually happy about it, even though it made me feel sick to my stomach. Why? It's a lot better that it happens now when I'm betting 10's and 20's, versus losing my trading stake I've been saving for 8 months. I still stuck to my system and was still making money. Until one night these guys brought a bunch of money. I saw all the cash and I was like I'm gonna get it all. I ended up losing a lot of money that night. I laugh at that too, cos now I encountered both fear and greed. Another great thing I realized is that I'm not as strong as I thought I was. It was a humbling experience. My main purpose with craps is to improve my discipline, and to test where I'm at psychologically. I realized that I am susceptible to fear, greed, and overtrading. I am working on my plan with someone on this board. There are some things I need to test out. Once I get my rules set, I think this can cut down on trades that are psychological mistakes. Such as taking trades out of greed, hanging on to losses due to fear, and taking trades out of boredom. I realize I am just human, but that does not mean I cannot improve myself. So the question I asked earlier is how can I improve myself? ...sorry, I tried to be brief. Andy
Thanks for the detailed post. Now read back at your post and do you see the irony of what you are writing? You are seeking to be unmonetary. You seek success in one way but your goal is not to be. I think you feel guilt of some sort that your are going to make money. It's against your base morals. Well, there it is. There are more but I think I'll post those later.
WDGann, Success is not always determined by the measurement of $$$... I need money to pay the bills and live comfortably, but most importantly I need to make money to insure I can keep playing this beautiful game... With that said the monetary rewards are not my main motive... 1) For the show ----> 2) For the green PEACE and good trading, Commisso
Irony again. But monetary success brings peace to traders. You agree? We all hate losing, that's why we try so hard to get better. Once we come to a level of being profitable, because of natural or instinctive desire, we seek peace from other aspects. That's when we start saying money isn't everything because money doesn't satisfy our egos. It's actually an ego of persuing peace. As I posted on the previous posts, there are steps to this. It comes down to what is ego. That's a philosophical question, I'm using it as a desire of seeking. Commisso, don't you hate to be unpeaceful? Don't you seek to have a happy life, being open to people, and having an open mind? When you seek, then it shall reap (it's something you said on previous post). I think you believe in cause and effect. You cause to have something occur to you. There's no effect with you if you don't cause it. I think peacefulness is the same. You seek peacefulness, that's why you earn it.
First, you can stop fooling yourself into thinking any system designed for craps will have a positive expectancy.
The monetary aspects of this game do not bring me peace, especially not on a micro level... Like I said, money is not my #1 motive for playing this game... I definately do want to make money, dont get me wrong, but no external factors, especially in the form of "material" objects will ever bring me true peace... It just goes deeper for me... Not saying it is "right" or "wrong" -----> It is just me and my way PEACE and good trading, Commisso
So are you're telling Andy to pursue his inner and deeper peace than the monetary aspects? Yes, I understand. It comes down to what we are doing that is important. Large bank accounts don't make people happy. It's what we do with the money that makes us happy. BUYING something that we like with the MONEY makes us happy. HAVING money makes some happy. I understand that it's the "relationship" itself with the material is what's important. The "relationship" with money occurs when we have it. If you don't have the money itself, there is a negative "relationship" to start off with. Now, trading is an action. You trade in a way that keeps you happy. I hope I'm correct. It's the "relationship (trading)" with the market that keeps you happy. I hope I'm correct here. Actions are based on your base on your inner self. It's your perception(knowledge, experience, perspectives, your belief system and logic, etc. etc.) and expression of your inner self. If you're inner self seeks or in a state where you are unprofitable what do you do? Don't you have to change it? Added on edit: Purely seeking inner self doesn't automatically make you profitable. Sure you'll get your inner peace. Thou shall seek, then it shall reap. Well, that's what I think. So Commisso, you've never worked hard to make more money at any point of your trading career? I think you did, you did agree to me on the previous post with finding your own style. I think you're writing your post based on you now. The question isn't me now, me now. It's about how we got to this point and reflecting based on Andy or other's point. Another edit: Do you make money even if you don't seek it in the micro level?
The type of craps we play here is different. It's not vegas rules. I just used lay bets, which are the same payoffs. When the point is 4,5,9,10 I would bet against the shooter. That gives me a slight edge because the shooter has a better chance of getting crapped out... 7. Since I was always winning, people stopped betting me unless I started rolling. Now I have a negative expectancy.
For myself, yes I do want money. Why else did I get interested in trading in the first place? From what I've learned, I thought in order to make a lot of money you have to lose attachment with money. I used to play golf competitively. I had a golf psychologist, and the main thing we worked on was getting my mind focused on the task, rather than what my score is going to be. What really hurt me was when I was having a great round I'd think to myself, "I'm 4 under, wow I can have a great round." By thinking about what my score is going to be distracted my mind from the objective. I would be lucky enough to shoot 4 over that day. So what my golf psychologist and I worked on was keeping my mind focused on the task. This required a lot of discipline on my part. So basically I had to keep my mind on my task. I had to determine the situation. What's the wind doing, what's the lie, where's the trouble, what's the best approach to the pin, etc... then decide what I'm going to do. I had to do this one shot at a time. The harderst part was when I was walking up to my next shot. This is the time I'm the most vulnerable. During this time I try and prepare for the next shot, cos if I start thinking of the future I will not be psychologically prepared on the next shot. From what I have learned in golf as well as books on trading, this is what I believe on trading. If I want a great growth in my account, I cannot think about what the account is going to be, but take things one trade at a time. There's some interesting comments here. Some that I agree and some that I do not. My perspective may not always be right, so I'm gonna have to think over the comments some more. I don't mean to make my comments gospel for the art of trading. What if there was some relevance? Maybe your golf game can improve with this though. Anyways, good weekend everyone. Andy
I've been writing other posts and writing about what Commisso wrote so I'll start writing where I left off with my opinion and advice to you. Let's get the psychology part out for a while. Let's talk about your trade style itself. Can you define what your plan's edge is? Don't give me charts and say I would have traded here, give me a well acceptable reasoning behind the edge that all the people here can accept. In words and numbers. At least have 1/2 people say, "Yeah, it might work" or "Yeah, sounds good."... well, you don't have do that but are you confident about being able to do that. If you are unsure, it might be better to look into your plan more. If you can then I'll get to the next step. Next step after you think you have the plan is to have control of it. Realistically, test it or go through every market situation you can think of. Looking at how you are right now, would you be able to trade reasonably? Not profitably, reasonably? Yes or No. This is market situation. Not mental state. Think about possibilities of how you would react to the market situation. Don't start with "If I'm greedy then..." rather start from "I went in 30 min. ago at this point from this particular signal... I'm up (or down)... I'd feel greedy... happy..." If your plan uses technicals have a chart in front of you and chronologically follow it. Realistically, considering how you traded before... think how you would have reacted to the run-ups and drawdowns. Wins, losses. The more realistically you can do this, the more you know about yourself and you can find what you can correct. Then think about what would have been the best mental state for you to do this. This is actually what I do to new guys in the firm. I give them a chart with a moving average on it and ask who they would have traded it. Guys who end-up losers always point out only the profits with the charts. They're like, "Yeah, the moving average is turned around so I'll go in here, ride the trend, get out here. Then the market is consolidating so I won't go into these trades and the market starts trending so I'll go in here." Guy who are good or become profitable actually state and admit the losing trades too. That's step one... it's getting late so I'll goto step 2 sometime else.