Prudent Risk Management + No Edge = Positive Expectancy??

Discussion in 'Risk Management' started by ironchef, Nov 14, 2023.

  1. ironchef

    ironchef

    Thank you again @schizo.
     
    #21     Nov 14, 2023
  2. ironchef

    ironchef

    Great post. I have to digest your comments carefully. I do not know how to use indicators to trade (didn't work for me somehow). Purely general pattern and gut feel.

    Now that you mentioned it, maybe subconsciously I followed momentum?
     
    #22     Nov 14, 2023
  3. hilmy83

    hilmy83

    When I backtested, I only did over 3 years, but good mix of volatility, up and down markets. There are some people who swear by 10 year backtest or longer.

    I think as long as you cover different market conditions, you should just go run with it.
     
    #23     Nov 14, 2023
  4. newwurldmn

    newwurldmn

    What is risk management but a prediction of the future? If you can’t predict the future with any statistical significance you can’t do “prudent risk management”
     
    #24     Nov 14, 2023
    beginner66 likes this.
  5. Jzwu2017

    Jzwu2017

    PRM = take loss quickly. What about winners? How do you decide when to exit/take profit? A winner can easily become a loser. I think deciding when to exit a winner is an edge by itself.
     
    #25     Nov 14, 2023
    ironchef and rb7 like this.
  6. Jzwu2017

    Jzwu2017

    Today’s example below. I entered long at $236 around 2:40pm. Price immediately went up. I moved stop to $236.25 and set profit exit at $237.75 and walked away. About 20 mins later I came back and the price was hovering around $236.7. When it dropped to $236.56 I couldn’t take it anymore and exited with a small profit, but ended the day in red. If I had waited until my original target gets hit, I’d have been a few hundred $ positive today.


    upload_2023-11-14_20-0-37.png
     
    #26     Nov 14, 2023
  7. Zwaen

    Zwaen

    Please post results of a minimum of 1000 trades over a minimum time span of 5y. This is really like discussing why your throw of the dice showed number 2 :)

    As for exiting, i think its best to start with a clear definition of your goal. Eg for me it is just captering that occasional large swing. In essence, this is what most retail traders want to do, breakout, OR, momentum etc it's basically all the same.

    I also think this discussion on having an edge or not is nice but can put people off thinking they need to compete with the big funds perse, which is offcourse futile. I think its better - for retail- to focussing on to position yourself for if history repeats itself, again. (Let's call this a "prediction"). Then your study goes to how to do this properly, and you can sweat and search for that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
    #27     Nov 15, 2023
    rb7 and zghorner like this.
  8. zghorner

    zghorner

    I pretty much agree with everything in this post.

    For me, once I identified and studied the target I wished to capture (1-3 trending moves per day in CL) everything changed. Still a work in progress but having that clearly defined goal, then developing a strategy around achieving said goal was a big leap for me. It's still not easy though...even with a solid plan the human element will fck you and requires its own level of refinement.
     
    #28     Nov 15, 2023
    Zwaen likes this.
  9. Jzwu2017

    Jzwu2017

    My point is a few times a day I can see the market clearly. But my psychology and execution often get in the way. Also, I think edge is not absolute, meaning sometimes you have a clear edge and sometimes you don’t. That’s why you need good execution and risk management all the time.

    In addition, too often I mistake randomness as edge and over trade. Being able to tell real edge from randomness is by itself a true edge. I think it requires more experience and time in the market and a cultivation of good market intuition.
     
    #29     Nov 15, 2023
  10. ironchef

    ironchef

    I agree if you are trading options, derivatives, etc. as what I have been doing since 2013.

    In day trading, my approach is 180, I use trend following, simply follow the leader. According to your thesis, risk management is pointless if I don't know the future?
     
    #30     Nov 15, 2023
    zghorner likes this.