POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by candletrader, Dec 8, 2002.

Which of these is most likely?

  1. Co-ordinated large-scale bombings of shopping malls and offices (similar to September 11, but not us

    12 vote(s)
    133.3%
  2. Biological attacks on schools, malls, airports etc

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  3. Highly co-ordinated machine gun mow-downs of crowds by suicide gangs

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. One person suicide bombings (similar to that carried out by Hamas) co-ordinated across numerous smal

    30 vote(s)
    333.3%
  5. Devastating car bombs set to go off amongst traffic queues of commuters crawling into work in the ru

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. It won't be as obvious as any of the above, but it will make September 11 look like a wasp bite com

    26 vote(s)
    288.9%
  7. No repercussions

    95 vote(s)
    1,055.6%
  1. Professor Edward Aronow's letter of April 21 on Israeli treatment of Palestinians is so filled with error and distortion that one short response can only begin to correct it.

    Israeli rule over Palestinians is essentially fascist. The Israeli army assault on the West Bank town of Beita in the wake of the death of an Israeli teenager can only be described as a pogrom -- brutal, murderous assault such as the Tsarist police and the Nazis committed against Jews.

    Killing persons armed only with stones or "trying to flee" - - including numerous Palestinian teenagers -- collective punishment, beatings, imprisonment without trail for indefinite periods, deportations -- this is fascist repression, akin to Nazi terrorism.

    The lesson of World War II -- especially of the Nazi holocaust -- is that fascism cannot be fought with "moderation." Mass Palestinian protests, including violent protests, must be welcomed, and supported by all those who oppose injustice. Pacifist and "non-violent" protest would be morally irresponsible, since they can never succeed against fascist oppression, but only lead to the unnecessary deaths of many protesters.

    Terrorist assassinations, whether by the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), or the far more numerous acts of terrorist murder by the Israeli army and settlers, must be condemned. However, Israel is far more guilty in this regard, quantitatively, than the PLO.

    About 10 times the number of Palestinians have been murdered by Israel than the number of Israelis murdered by PLO terrorists. Yet Israeli terrorist repression against Palestinians is termed `retaliation" or "assassination" in the US media!

    Israeli fascist brutalities follow a long history of working with some of the worst fascists on earth, including South Africa, Iran, Turkey, and Argentina. Israel is a major supplier of arms and military advisors to South Africa. Israeli advisors helped train the Iranian Secret Police under the fascist Shah in torture techniques. Today Israel is the major arms supplier to Khomeini's Iran!

    One need not look far to find the roots of Israeli terrorism and fascism. Take Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir. Before World War II he belonged to a Zionist grouplet that, in 1940, offered to enter the war on the side of Nazi Germany if the Nazis would permit a Zionist state, run along fascist lines, in Palestine. Shamir personally planned the 1948 terrorist murder of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN Special Mediator for Palestine.

    During the war, the major Zionist leaders collaborated with Adolf Eichmann to send half a million Hungarian Jews to their deaths in Nazi extermination camps, in return for the Nazis letter 1500 or so Zionists emigrate to Palestine -- a fact long since documented by Zionist writers. Such is the "love" of the Zionist leaders for "their own people"!

    The root problem is racism and its twin, nationalism. Israeli law claims that any Jew, anywhere in the world, has a right to full Israeli citizenship, while Arabic-speaking Palestinians have no such right even if they were born and have lived all their lives on the territory now comprising Israel. This is an inherently racist policy. Fascist racism is built into the very existence of the Israeli state.

    It is in the interest of Israeli rulers to foment as much hatred between Jews and Palestinians as they can. Israel's economy depends heavily upon the exploitation of very cheap Palestinian labor, just as South Africa's does on Black labor.

    Israeli Jewish workers are very militant; relative to population;there are more work-days lost to strikes in Israel than in any country in the world. Racism and nationalism are the main things keeping Jewish and non- Jewish workers from allying with one another.

    At all costs, Israeli bosses must prevent this, while keeping the super-exploited Palestinian workers nearby and without rights. The parallel with South Africa -- or with American treatment of "illegal aliens" and minorities -- is unmistakable.

    Incidentally, there are not "dozens of Arab states," as Professor Aranow, following the Israeli government propaganda line, says. There is one major Arab state, Saudi Arabia, and several minor ones on that peninsula. There are many Arabic-speaking states, just as there are many countries besides England where English is spoken. There is no "Palestinian state" in Jordan. Here Professor Aranow simply parrots Israeli disinformation.

    Like Israel, the Moslem, Arabic-speaking states are also undemocratic, elite-run dungeons. In light of Israeli terror, however, Professor Aranow's prattle about the need to "await greater Arab political maturity" is racist nonsense.
     
    #661     Jan 18, 2003
  2. wild

    wild

    fairplay,

    here´s an example of Old English (Anglo-Saxon) literature:

    Äþelstan cyning,eorla dryhten,
    beorna beahgifa,& his broþor eac,
    Eadmund æþeling,ealdorlangne tir
    geslogon æt sæccesweorda ecgum
    ymbe Brunanburh.Bordweal clufan,
    heowan heaþolindehamora lafan,
    afaran Eadweardes,swa him geæþele wæs
    from cneomægum,þæt hi æt campe oft
    wiþ laþra gehwæneland ealgodon,
    hord & hamas.

    Hettend crungun,
    Sceotta leoda& scipflotan
    fæge feollan,feld dænnede
    secgas hwate,siðþan sunne up
    on morgentid,mære tungol,
    glad ofer grundas,godes condel beorht,
    eces drihtnes,oð sio æþele gesceaft
    sah to setle.

    Pær læg secg mænig
    garum ageted,guma norþerna
    ofer scild scoten,swilce Scittisc eac,
    werig, wiges sæd.Wesseaxe forð
    ondlongne dægeorodcistum
    on last legdunlaþum þeodum,
    heowan hereflemanhindan þearle
    mecum mylenscearpan.

    Myrce ne wyrndon
    heeardes hondpleganhæleþa nanum
    þæ þe mid Anlafeofer æra gebland
    on lides bosmeland gesohtun,
    fæge to gefeohte.Fife lægun
    on þam campstedecyninges giunge,
    sweordum aswefede,swilce seofene eac
    eorlas Anlafes,unrim heriges,
    flotan & Sceotta.

    Pær geflemed wearð
    Norðmanna bregu,nede gebeded,
    to lides stefnelitle weorode;
    cread cnear on flot,cyning ut gewat
    on fealene flod,feorh generede.
    Swilce þær eac se frodamid fleame com
    on his cyþþe norð,Costontinus,
    har hilderinc,hreman ne þorfte
    mæca gemanan;he wæs his mæga sceard,
    freonda gefylledon folcstede,
    beslagen æt sæcce,& his sunu forlet
    on wælstowewundun fergrunden,
    giungne æt guðe.

    Gelpan ne þorfte
    beorn blandenfeaxbilgeslehtes,
    eald inwidda,ne Anlaf þy ma;
    mid heora herelafumhlehhan ne þorftun
    þæt heo beaduweorcabeteran wurdun
    on campstedeculbolgehnastes,
    garmittinge,gumena gemotes,
    wæpengewrixles,þæs hi on wælfelda
    wiþ Eadweardesafaran plegodan.

    Gewitan him þa Norþmennægledcnearrum,
    dreorig daraða laf,on Dinges mere
    ofer deop wæterDifelin secan,
    & eft Iraland,æwiscmode.

    Swilce þa gebroþerbegen ætsamne,
    cyning & æþeling,cyþþe sohton,
    Wesseaxena land,wiges hremige.
    Letan him behindanhræw bryttian
    saluwigpadan,þone sweartan hræfn,
    hyrnednebban,& þane hasewanpadan,
    earn æftan hwit,æses brucan,
    grædigne guðhafoc& þæt græge deor,
    wulf on wealde.

    Ne wearð wæl mare
    on þis eiglandeæfer gieta
    folces gefylledbeforan þissum
    sweordes ecgum,þæs þe us secgað bec,
    ealde uðwitan,siþþan eastan hider
    Engle & Seaxeup becoman,
    ofer brad brimuBrytene sohtan,
    wlance wigsmiþas,Weealas ofercoman,
    eorlas arhwateeard begeatan.


    i´ve shown this report of the battle of Brunanburh to my cleaning lady, who is from Jever in East Friesland, home of the famous bitter Jever Beer.

    http://www.ostfriesen-info.de/mab/guide/ofkarte.htm

    http://www.stadt-jever.de/

    http://www.jever.de/englisch/home/home_frame.htm

    to me as a German dialect buff it didn´t come as a surprise that that elderly woman had no problem at all to read and understand this interesting text ... like myself.

    conclusion:

    all those Nigerian, Australian, Liberian, Hong-Kongese, Egyptian, Sudanese, Kenyan etc. English speakers are basically using a northern German dialect ... which unfortunately has been corrupted (particularly in America) over the past 15 centuries into modern English.

    so, with considerable justification we can proudly say that friesisch Plattdeutsch is the most widely used means of human communication worldwide.

    or is it Chinese ... by any chance ?

    regards

    wild
     
    #662     Jan 18, 2003
  3. stu

    stu

    Is it me or are these guys Wild and Trderfuk etc freaks or what?

    Is it a cultural thing where they just end up ranting to themselves via copied internet pages until they've formed a closed - un thinking, non responsive self perpetuating swap shop of garbage nonsense?

    Wild you are freaky, I suggest you copy paste Chaucer next as proof that germany really won the last world war and arab extremists really just want to be loved
     
    #663     Jan 18, 2003
  4. Shame on you. It's been right in the major news sources and anyone paying attention should know; this law has been on the books for decades, they simply are now enforcing it.

    Here is my own C & P from Ann Coulter, written immediately after the big fiasco with a Secret Service agent who was denied boarding because he looks like an Arab:

    "Even the Supreme Court was never this crazy. To the contrary, in a 1975 case called United States vs. Brignoni-Ponce, the court held that the "Mexican appearance" of a car's occupants could be considered by border police stopping cars near the Mexican border to look for illegal aliens.

    This was back in the halcyon days when the court was inventing new and preposterous "rights" every other day. But even that court didn't invent a right not to have one's ethnic appearance considered a factor in creating reasonable suspicion.

    Rather, the court noted: "The government has estimated that 85 percent of the aliens illegally in the country are from Mexico." Meanwhile, 100 percent of the successful terrorist attacks on commercial airlines for 20 years have been committed by Arabs.

    When there is a 100 percent chance, it ceases to be a profile. It's called a "description of the suspect." This is not a psychological judgment about an ethnic group – it is an all-points bulletin: Warning! The next terrorist to board a commercial flight will be an Arab or Muslim male.

    If ethnic appearance can be used as a factor by the police trying to stem the dire threat of one more Mexican raking leaves in Los Angeles, it is logical to conclude that ethnic appearance can also be used to counter the threat of thousands of Americans being killed in a terrorist attack."
     
    #664     Jan 18, 2003
  5. wild

    wild

    Car wars

    The US economy needs oil like a junkie needs heroin - and Iraq will supply its next fix


    Ian Roberts
    Saturday January 18, 2003
    The Guardian

    War in Iraq is inevitable. That there would be war was decided by North American planners in the mid-1920s. That it would be in Iraq was decided much more recently. The architects of this war were not military planners but town planners. War is inevitable not because of weapons of mass destruction, as claimed by the political right, nor because of western imperialism, as claimed by the left. The cause of this war, and probably the one that will follow, is car dependence.

    The US has paved itself into a corner. Its physical and economic infrastructure is so highly car dependent that the US is pathologically addicted to oil. Without billions of barrels of precious black sludge being pumped into the veins of its economy every year, the nation would experience painful and damaging withdrawal.
    ...

    full article at http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,877269,00.html

    regards

    wild
     
    #665     Jan 18, 2003
  6. Typical day for Wild.

    Get up, turn on the computer, search for articles that support his opinions.

    Copy and past them at E.T.

    Go to sleep.

    A full day, indeed.
     
    #666     Jan 18, 2003
  7. well, wild.. as a near native ENGLISH speaker, i had immense trouble even pronouncing those words, let alone coming anything close to understanding them.

    i think you really ought to do some research on what constitutes a dialect... the line between 'dialect' and 'language' is obviously arbitrary, but surely when the speaker of one dialect cannot, for the life of him, make head or tail of what a speaker of another is saying, that thing, imo, ceases to be a dialect.

    corrupted huh? lol. what a strange corruption when the 'new' language turns out to be vastly superior to what it is corrupting...

    "proudly say"? why? even, in the odd chance that what you say is true, what role do you consider yourself to have played in the process for you to be "proud"?
     
    #667     Jan 18, 2003
  8. why do you consider my opinion on the importance of whence language came childish?

    the salient fact that arises from all this pointless discussion is that, REGARDLESS OF ITS ORIGINS, THERE CURRENTLY EXISTS A LANGUAGE CALLED ENGLISH.. and... as i said... it is currently the most important language in the world... and, although i can't back it up with undeniable facts, it is my educated opinion that english is most likely the richest, most versatile, most expressive, most useful language in existence.... and if you think me saying so is "childish", you are far too much of ignoramous for me to even bother replying to.


    hooray for you and the chinese. i'm certainly not saying that they shouldn't do that. if it makes them happy, great.
    personally, and i imagine quite a few of my western counterparts would agree, my sense of identity doesn't rest on the language i happen to speak. that, in my opinion, is a recipe for division, not unity. for MORE racism, not LESS.

    lol. fairplay you really make me laugh. what an attrociously fallacious line of argument.

    the chinese do have a habit of looking at things from a historical perspective, i agree. they place a high value on the things that last and have lasted. agreed. (as a sidenote, it doesn't seem to have really helped them much does it? considering how badly they have lagged the west in terms of scientific discovery, philosophical inquiry, economic development, social/cultural improvement...)

    now, just to go back to your BS 'reasoning', this is what it looks like:
    chinese look at things through a historical perspective
    therefore
    one day most australians will speak that language.

    hahaha.

    a large number of australians already do speak chinese... and if, in times to come, more join their ranks, i wouldn't be surprised. but i can guarantee you it won't be because the chinese language is in some way inherently superior, or because of the famed historical perspective of the chinese people... hahaha...
     
    #668     Jan 18, 2003
  9. I would prefer Wild speak and post only in German myself....

    Then I wouldn't even bother to try to read it.

    I would much rather read someone who speaks and writes broken English, than someone like Wild who is nothing but a parrot copying and pasting the opinions of others who do actually form some.
     
    #669     Jan 18, 2003
  10. rs7

    rs7

    Well O777, looks like your point went unheeded. Very next post was, you guessed it, another paste job.

    Can it ever be made clear to these guys that NOBODY wants to read this stuff? If we did, we all know how to find it on our own.

    Certainly don't need to use ET as a place in which to replicate political publications from whatever sources.

    I would always rather hear a lame argument in someone's own words than a great argument from a source scrounged from the endless supply of slanted journalism so easily found on the web.

    There are talented writers on both sides of any issue. And the statistics that get used are laughable in the case of what Traderfut keeps on hammering us with. The Israelis murder innocent children. They are modern nazis, war criminals, etc., etc.

    I like Traderfut....he is bright and I think he is sincere in his desire for peace. But I have an enormous problem understanding how he can have such a closed mind. Why he cannot answer the simplest questions.


    Some of the "statistics" are so far from reality that it is scary. Some are right up there with Holocaust denial.

    Really poor arguments. Just because someone can express themselves in writing, and can get published in some anti-whatever journal does not qualify them to be quoted.

    If you believe everything you read, you become dangerous.

    Traderfut....once again, I ask: What was the sole objective of the Arab/Israeli war in 1948? Answer this and you will make me a happy guy. 'Cause I have asked you so many times, and NEVER ONCE got an answer. Is it too embarrassing to answer? (I will accept the answer to also apply to the wars started by the Arab nations against Israel in 1956, 1967, and 1973....they all had the same single objective). Maybe going 0-4 is disheartening. But think football. There are comebacks. You don't have to kill yourself (or have your kids kill themselves) just because you have a losing record!

    Peace,
    :)rs7
     
    #670     Jan 18, 2003