POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by candletrader, Dec 8, 2002.

Which of these is most likely?

  1. Co-ordinated large-scale bombings of shopping malls and offices (similar to September 11, but not us

    12 vote(s)
    133.3%
  2. Biological attacks on schools, malls, airports etc

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  3. Highly co-ordinated machine gun mow-downs of crowds by suicide gangs

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. One person suicide bombings (similar to that carried out by Hamas) co-ordinated across numerous smal

    30 vote(s)
    333.3%
  5. Devastating car bombs set to go off amongst traffic queues of commuters crawling into work in the ru

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. It won't be as obvious as any of the above, but it will make September 11 look like a wasp bite com

    26 vote(s)
    288.9%
  7. No repercussions

    95 vote(s)
    1,055.6%
  1. wild

    wild

    American Blood©2001

    Posted by T.J. James on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 at 09:20:22

    " AMERICAN BLOOD "© 09-15-01

    Verse1

    Hey we're red, yellow, black and white.
    Southern born rebels and proud yanks.
    Baptists, Catholics, sinners and saints.
    Gone' stand togeather, in this fight.

    Chorus

    'Cause it's American blood,
    that flows through our veins.
    And, Lord the sound of freedom's
    beating in our hearts.
    Yea, our American blood's
    been shed, so peace reigns.
    And our American blood
    will shed, so peace reigns.

    Verse2

    Homeless black man, done got the news.
    Heard terror done fell from the sky.
    Cart in hand, dawned in stars and stripes.
    Ol' vet knows what we got to do.

    Chorus

    'Cause it's American blood,
    that flows through his veins.
    And, Lord the sound of freedom's
    beating in his heart.
    Yea, his American blood's
    been shed, so peace reigns.
    And our American blood
    will shed, so peace reigns.

    Verse3

    Cherokee Cheifs, counsel with braves.
    On this morn', the red sun has rose;
    on our Trail of Tears; from moons gone.
    Stand my brothers. Unite this day.

    Chorus

    'Cause it's American blood,
    that flows through our veins.
    And the running buffalo,
    beating in our hearts.
    Yea, our American blood's
    been shed, so peace reigns.
    And our American blood
    will shed, so peace reigns.

    Written By : Timothy S. Martin (BMI)
    pka - T.J. James

    http://www.tjjames.net/message/posts/10.html
     
    #291     Dec 17, 2002
  2. ElCubano

    ElCubano

    Tell that to the Victims of 9-11.......who were mostly, if not all, civilians.

    America is no angel, that we agree on.
     
    #292     Dec 17, 2002
  3. Yes, and we also agree on the terrible terror that defined September 11... and instead of creating more reasons to perpetuate terror against the USA (through what is broadly speaking American terrorism), the USA would be better to deal with the reasons behind the terror directed against her...
     
    #293     Dec 17, 2002
  4. ElCubano

    ElCubano

    How does one deal with the likes of Osama or Saddam.. I for one have stated in the past that I am agaisnt WAR ( only for the reason of soldier casualty )....But do you honestly think that if the USA would change their foriegn policy, terrorism would come to a screaching halt????....remember terrorism is carried out by just a few..I cant imagine America is hated as much as you say( there being American products everywhere )..Jealous maybe, but hated..Maybe in countries that brainwash continously through media and other outlets...

    I think it would continue, and as I have said before the World can be an ugly place. We have choices in life we can control and some we cant..Maybe moving to another country not paying taxes or being part of American policies is what u should consider ( that you can control)....The way America conducts itself ( that you cant control)......peace...
     
    #294     Dec 17, 2002
  5. wild

    wild

    #295     Dec 17, 2002
  6. Josh_B

    Josh_B

    Until there's
    some other energy source readily available, many people will
    consider blood for oil a necessary tradeoff (particularly if it's
    not their blood but the blood of a "volunteer" army of youths
    escaping poverty).


    Via The NY Transfer News Service ~ All the News that Doesn't Fit

    Bush made war for oil profits, not just oil

    By Deirdre Griswold

    When Bush or Quayle or, for that matter, Clinton get around to
    talking about the Middle East and why they are for a dominant
    U.S. military presence there, they of course profess to be
    defending human rights, democracy, self-determination and all the
    things that are in such short supply in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait,
    their great allies.

    But then comes the clincher. Of course, say these capitalist
    politicians, we must protect our vital interests in the region
    and make sure that the oil that powers our homes, cars and
    economy can never be shut off.

    Now, this is what everyone understands the struggle to be really
    about, no matter the fancy human rights talk. That is why in
    opposing U.S. imperialist aggression against Iraq or Iran, or
    perhaps at some future time Venezuela or Nigeria or Mongolia, it
    isn't sufficient to merely say "No blood for oil." Until there's
    some other energy source readily available, many people will
    consider blood for oil a necessary tradeoff (particularly if it's
    not their blood but the blood of a "volunteer" army of youths
    escaping poverty).

    Twofold character of oil

    What the progressive, working class movement has to make crystal
    clear is that the U.S. government's policy on oil really has
    little to do with the need for oil as a useful product. That
    is in abundance in the world, particularly right here in the
    United States. It is oil as a source of surplus value, of profit,
    that drives the terrible engines of war.

    Anyone who doubts this should have seen the McNeil-Lehrer News
    Hour on PBS on Aug. 19. A bunch of independent oil producers were
    complaining about the Bush administration's handling of the issue
    dearest to their hearts: oil policy. These were not the Seven
    Sisters crowd, the monstrous oil billionaires who sit astride the
    world and make or break whole countries. These were just
    millionaires, who can't run to Kuwait or Indonesia with their
    capital because it's tied up in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana.

    They were saying that $20 billion worth of oil drilling
    equipment, offshore rigs and other capital purchases are lying
    idle in this area, not because there isn't oil in the ground but
    because Middle East oil is so cheap they can't compete with it.
    And they more or less accused the Reagan-Bush leaders of
    colluding with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to keep things that way.

    It should be remembered that before Iraq invaded, Kuwait was
    exceeding its OPEC quota in oil production. This lowered the
    world price of oil and undercut the development programs of
    countries like Iraq that have less money and many more people
    than the little oil-rich emirates and principalities.

    The $20 billion in rusting rigs in the Texas-Oklahoma-Louisiana
    area has meant the loss of countless thousands of jobs and a
    depression in these three states affecting not just the oil
    industry but everything from real estate to public jobs dependent
    on tax revenues. In Louisiana, the economic collapse fueled the
    rise of the fascist David Duke.

    >From Titusville to the Middle East

    As recently as the 1930s, 60 percent of the world's petroleum was
    pumped out of the ground right here in the U.S. The modern
    petroleum industry got its start in Titusville, Pa., in 1859. By
    1901 the world's first real "gusher" was drilled at Spindletop in
    Texas.

    But the giant oil corporations that were already spreading their
    tentacles into banking and other industries soon found they could
    make even bigger profits elsewhere. In 1912 Standard Oil put
    enough muscle on Holland to get a subsidiary licensed in the
    Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia). By the time of World War II,
    the Pacific and the oil-rich Middle East were top on the list of
    regions the giant monopolies wanted under their control.

    After the war, giant oilfields were developed in areas of the
    Middle East that had previously been British and French colonies
    but were now falling increasingly under the economic domination
    of the U.S. By 1979, the OPEC countries produced 66 percent of
    the world's petroleum--but the refining, transporting and
    marketing of the oil has always been under the control of the
    Seven Sisters: five U.S. petroleum giants plus Royal Dutch Shell
    and British Petroleum.

    Who gained from Gulf war?

    The Gulf war put the U.S. firmly in control of Kuwait's vast oil
    wealth. Moreover, the continued Pentagon intervention in Iraq
    that goes on to this day and threatens a renewal of the war at
    any time is directed against those areas in the north and south
    of the country that have the biggest oil fields--all under the
    guise of protecting the rights of the Kurds and the Shiites,
    respectively.

    As should be painfully clear by now, the war won nothing as far
    as workers' jobs in the U.S. are concerned. It didn't turn around
    the stagnant capitalist economy, and it even deepened the
    depression in the domestic oil industry.

    What it did do was secure even greater profits for the biggest
    billionaire corporations. They are the ones who hold the world
    hostage and threaten to choke off the vital life lines of all who
    oppose them.


    -30-

    (Copyright Workers World Service: Permission to reprint granted
    if source is cited. For more info contact Workers World,46 W. 21
    St., New York, NY 10010; "workers@igc.apc.org".)

    -----
    NY Transfer News Service
    Modem: 718-448-2358 nytransfer@igc.org nyxfer@panix.com


    http://eserver.org/govt/gulf-war/war-for-oil.txt



    Josh
     
    #296     Dec 17, 2002
  7. fairplay

    fairplay Guest

    Wild, I went through that website and was appalled by the way these people talk about "Zionism".

    Perhaps you can enlighten us about something I have read some while ago somewhere about your formerly East German compatriots who were brought up by their communist government in an anti-Zionist spirit and who now turn out to be vulnerable to neo-nazi tendencies.

    As a coloured man of Asian background I would be worried walking around in East German cities like Dresden or Leipzig, would you not?
     
    #297     Dec 17, 2002
  8. wild

    wild

    fairplay,

    i didn´t have the time to go through the entire "Stop Fascism" website yet ... was attracted by the slogan and the Bush & Ashcroft cartoons.

    apart from my "formerly east German compatriots" a lot of people around the world appear to be "vulnerable to neo-nazi tendencies" ... www.americannaziparty.com

    as for "couloured" people of Asian background: thousands of Asians (Vietnamese etc.) have been living & working in East Germany for decades and seem to be well accepted by the local people ... and quite happy to live in Dresden & Leipzig.

    regards

    wild
     
    #298     Dec 18, 2002
  9. vvv

    vvv

    very true and valid points.


    The Chicken Hawks' War

    Vietnam Draft-Dodgers Are The Force Behind An Iraqi Invasion

    George Johnson served in the U.S. Navy from 1962 to 1966. He is the Vice Commander of American Legion Post 315 and a member of Veterans for Peace.

    This past Veterans Day, I took time out of my busy schedule to remember the many people, some of them my friends, who gave the greatest sacrifice for their country. It's a commemoration I undertake every year, and always with a heavy heart. But this year my thoughts are especially somber, because this year I know that the United States is again headed for war, and that other unnecessary deaths are likely to occur.

    As a veteran of the U.S. Navy, I am strongly opposed to the proposed invasion of Iraq. This war seems to me ill-considered and ill-planned. Almost all the countries of the Middle East are opposed to a war with Iraq; our allies in Europe think an invasion is foolhardy. A credible case has not been made that Saddam Hussein poses a clear and present danger to the United States. Most disturbing to me is the White House's notion of a pre-emptive attack, an idea that contradicts the United States' historic policy of not acting as an aggressor.

    These are intellectual concerns. What really makes me sad and angry -- what keeps me up at night -- is the thought that this senseless war is being initiated by a group of people who have never seen combat, people who don't know what war is really about.

    The media has dubbed the war-happy individuals who never served in war "chicken hawks." These were the people who did all they could to avoid service in Vietnam while tens of thousands of young Americans -- and countless more Vietnamese -- were dying. Some people, including friends of mine, avoided service because they held principled objections to the war in Vietnam. Let's be clear: The "chicken hawks" weren't peacenik draft dodgers. Rather, they were cowardly draft dodgers. And now they are the ones who are so eager to start another war.

    Vice President Dick Cheney has said he didn't serve in Vietnam because he had "other priorities." Clearly, so did President Bush, who was in the National Guard, but went nearly 14 months without reporting for service and was almost declared AWOL. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a prominent hawk who is currently settled in a right-wing think tank, was in graduate school. Republican Whip Tom Delay also asked for a school deferment. Radio commentator Rush Limbaugh claimed a medical problem, as did current House leader Dennis Hastert. Senator Trent Lott was busy leading his college cheerleading squad.

    Now Lott, along with the rest of the chicken hawk brigade, is busy cheerleading for war. They treat the issue so cavalierly because they have never actually seen war, they don't know its horrors and its fears. Combat teaches you that war is a serious, deadly business. Too many of the officials in Washington never learned that lesson the hard way. For them, war is a theoretical exercise, like playing chess, or sports.

    For the chicken hawks, war seems easy because they have never born the weight of war -- and they will never have to. Nor, more than likely, will their sons and daughters. The rich and the privileged -- the sons and daughters of Senators and Congressmen -- aren't the ones who go to combat. Today's military is much like the military I served in 40 years ago -- disproportionately poor and working class, disproportionately made up of African-Americans and other people of color.

    Those who have really seen war know better than the chicken hawks. The veterans within the Bush Administration, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of State Colin Powell, have been the most cautious voices when it comes to Iraq. And there are other veterans -- Representative Charles Rangel of New York, Senator Ted Kennedy, and Congressional Medal of Honor winner Senator Daniel Inouye -- who voted against attacking Iraq.

    War is hell. But it's also true that war is an easier route to follow than peace -- throughout history, war has been the path more frequently taken. Attacking someone you don't agree with is a fairly straightforward affair; sitting down with your adversary and working out your disagreements is much more difficult. At the end of the day, it takes more courage to negotiate than to fight. Unfortunately, that's not the kind of courage we can expect from our chicken hawk leaders.

    San Francisco Chronicle


    our draft dodgers are more than willing to blow over 200 billion usd on total crap by going after someone who poses absolutely no threat to the usa, while 41 million americans don't even have health insurance, and 33 million americans are living in poverty, and we've recorded an all-time high in bankruptcies filed in the united states, over 800 k in the first half of 2002 alone, plus an all time high in mortgage foreclosures, and, last but not least, for the financial year 2002, a federal budget deficit of 314 billion usd, which represents the largest budget decline in us history.

     
    #299     Dec 18, 2002
  10. Good article. All these guys are greedy self serving jackasses ready to send others to die for thier financial or political gain.

    How come Clinton's critics on this issue - lack of military experience - are conspicuously silent now?

     
    #300     Dec 18, 2002