Part 1: (Sorry this response is so long...I feel like Darkhorse....but I don't know how else to respond to TF without a "cut and paste job". These are my thoughts, and anyone is obviously free to disregard them all) Yes, TF, I am fully aware that Arabs are "semites" and never did I call you an anti-semite. What I said was that "anti-semitism" was rampant now in Europe, and especially so in France. I also said that I could, but would not, do a "cut and paste" job to support these allegations. You know full well that I don't believe in that. Yet, here, once again, you do it. This article by Robert Jensen has been posted so many times on ET, I would know it by heart if I had read it each time (I didn't, and I won't for the very reasons I explained more than once.....I am interested in what YOU have to say, not what you have to quote). As a practical matter, let's agree that the term "anti-semite" although used loosely, and inaccurately (since you are correct, and arabs are semites), is, for practical purposes construed as meaning "anti-jewish". So let's forego the technical definition of "semite". At least in America, it means "anti-jewish". If you are more comfortable with that term, then I will use it. I am sure you knew what I meant anyway. TF, let's just agree to disagree. You think Israel is a terrorist state. Have you been there? While I sympathize somewhat with the plight of the Palestinians, there are certainly two sides to all the issues. I am getting tired of repeating myself. I am getting tired of having to. But once again.....the Palestinians could have a homeland if their leadership (Arafat) would accept compromise. Again, 98% of what he wanted was offered. Why must he have 100%? My only logical conclusion is that he does not want peace. The VAST MAJORITY of Israeli citizens DO NOT want to fight over the disputed territories. They want PEACE! And expected to have it over two years ago. But peace was abandoned by Arafat, and now the situation stinks for all parties. Israel has, indeed, inflicted casualties on innocent Palestinians. But not with intent. Suicide bombers have only one intent. And that is to kill innocent non-combatants. Do you disagree with this? Is bombing discos and pizza joints part of a strategy to tactically eliminate military threats? Or is it to cause fear and terror? You call Israel a "nazi" regime. You say the Palestinians have a right to the land that is now Israel because they were there first. What about the Jews? How far back in time would you like to go? 50 years? 2000 years? 3000 years? Last month? What? What time frame is most convenient to your argument? If the Palestinians are entitled to a homeland, are not the Jews? If the Palestinians are entitled to fight for a homeland, were not the Jews? After World War II, a state was established as a Jewish homeland. Was this something that they were not entitled to? And did they take (or where they given) some kind of paradise? Or a tiny strip of desert that they irrigated and brought into the 20th century through hard work and struggle? You said the Palestinians did not want to remain in Jordan...the territory the partition of Palestine gave these arab people the same rights to build as the jews got in what became Israel. But what did they accomplish in Jordan? You gave an example of me being forced from my home of New York, and how I would rather return than make a new home. So this is the "right of return" issue. Indeed a complex issue. Are some "palestinians" getting a bad deal in this? Yes, they are. But things are what they are. A lot of time has passed. And furthermore, the arab neighbors told the Palestinians in Israel to leave, because Israel (the Jews) would be driven into the sea in 1948. So believing this, the Arab residents left, hoping to come back soon. But the Arabs LOST that unprovoked war, and so the Arabs of Egypt and Syria basically let down the "palestinians". They told them to leave their homes, and they did. Then they (the other Arab nations) lost the war, and the Palestinians were screwed. But not only did they lose their homes (by deserting them), they weren't even accepted into the nations that supposedly supported their cause (the "palestinian" cause). So the "palestinians" left their homes in Israel, were not allowed to assimilate into society in their neighboring Arab countries....they were kept in refugee camps....and were treated as second class citizens (at best) by their supposed "brothers". So yeah, these people have suffered on all fronts. And now, Israel is supposed to do exactly what? Return the land that was abandoned? The land that the jews worked so hard for so long to develop? Sounds like a sweet deal for the Palestinians. And what of the jews that put in all the work? Are they to go back to Russia and Germany and Poland and all the other places they fled with no belongings and no rights to even live? You have a choice of going to a death camp in Poland or fleeing to Israel (British Palestine) with nothing but hope, what would you opt for? You make it to British Palestine, you fight for independence, and win. Do you turn around 55 years later and say....."hey you guys that fled, yeah, I worked hard to make a life here, but since you once were here, I will just pack it in and leave, and you can have it back. Even though you have been trying to take it (unsuccessfully) by force for so many years". Then what? Go back to Poland where they still to this day spit on Jews? Sounds like a really pleasant alternative to staying and fighting for what you spent so long to build into a "new" homeland. And what is the real definition of "new"? TF, you and I have gone through this before. The Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago. Kicked out, came back, kicked out, came back. Why? because it is such a lush paradise? No, my friend, it is because it is the holy land. And as it is also a (not the) holy land in Islam, as well as in Christianity, everyone wants Jerusalem. And you know what? Jerusalem could (and will someday) be shared as a holy city. But in the meantime, those friendly folks who love to blow up civilian targets don't want to share. So the Western Wall has to be heavily guarded by IDF. Have Israelis ever tried to desecrate Islamic holy sites? When the Church of the Nativity was under siege in Bethlehem recently, who were the perpetrators? When the Taliban decided to destroy Buddhist (or was it Hindu) holy sites, did Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists retaliate by destroying Islamic holy sites and shrines?
Part 2: I really do try and keep up hope that there is enough peace to go around and that everyone can live in harmony. But the actions of "fundamentalist" and "extremist" Islamic leaders (and yes, followers too), sometimes leads me to believe that Daniel _M is perhaps more pragmatic in his beliefs. How do you live in peace with a people that preach against peace? That wish to kill innocents? That (sadly) wish to die as martyrs? Where will it end? It is not an unreasonable fear to believe that it can only end with an end to the world. If Bin Laden had the means, do you think he would not use nuclear weapons? Saddam is, hopefully not an immediate threat. And I for one do not think now is a time to attack Iraq. But still, I know if he lives long enough and has the resources, eventually he would use weapons of mass destruction. So he does have to be done away with. Just hopefully without us having to go to war with his country. I like to think that there are more peace loving Muslims than there are hateful, murderous Muslims. I truly do believe that you yourself are a peace loving man. I do not think you are open minded enough to see both sides of the palestinian/Israeli issue, but that's ok. You are not in charge, and you don't even live there. But overall....tell me....what group comprises the most threatening elements of todays world? The Israelis, who are protecting their homeland? The Americans who now are making a lot of noise about warring with Iraq, but haven't done much but spew rhetoric? Or the Islamic element? Who has killed the most civilians? Children? Tourists? people in their offices or at their jobs thousands of miles from any conflict? What crime did the busboy from Thailand killed in Windows On The World commit to deserve to die at the hands of Mohammed Atta and friends? So, even though I disagree in principal with the strong anti-musliim attitudes expressed by some on these threads, at least I can understand the basis of the thought. There are very scary people fighting for their religious of political beliefs. Or their land disputes. But of them, how many are NOT of Islamic background? Yes, the Mossad has killed people outside of Israel. They tracked down and killed the freed terrorists that perpetrated the Munich Olympic Massacre. (one is still around). But did they kill innocents in foreign lands? Bin Laden and Arafat want to raise the level of awareness for the plight of their mistreated "constituents". They think mass murder and destruction helps their cause? Yeah, it spreads fear and has wrecked havoc on our economy. But has it furthered their real causes? NOT ONE BIT! They are getting the entire world to be repelled by their tactics. These are BAD GUYS. Their causes may have been just at one time. But they know how to make themselves very unsympathetic. I say, get rid of all of them. We can't find Bin Laden yet, but we all know where some of the other main cowards are. As bad as Sharon is, he lets Arafat live. Maybe because he knows how ineffective a leader Arafat is, but time is running out. The Israeli people will get Netenyahu or someone like him into office soon, and Arafat will be gone. Maybe he wants to be a martyr (but it doesn't seem like it...seems like too much of a coward). Either way, where are the peaceful leaders of Islam now? Who will step up and give voice to the reasonable arabs like yourself? TF, maybe you should run for office. Get all those votes from all those women (and of course men) free to vote and drive and all that stuff progressive arabs so freely get to do in places like Saudi Arabia and Iraq, and Syria, etc. Israel fights in their own territories. (Unless they have to free hostages in Entebbe....hey, who took those hostages anyway?)How many miles are there separating New York City from Bali? Where is the real threat to the entire world coming from? Peace, rs7
OK guys, this really aint the thread for pro- and anti-Israeli comments... this thread is the place for pro-USA and anti-USA comments... I state this because bringing Israel into the debate really does muddy the waters i.e. it is possible to be both generally pro-Israel at the same time as being generally anti-American foreign policy... this thread is complicated enough as it is!!!
Candle, you are right...your thread. But it seems every time the USA is mentioned, we are somehow steered into a discussion by TF about how America is responsible for backing the "nazi" Israeli regime that so persecutes the poor Palestinian people. I said my (rather lengthy) piece to address this to TF hopefully without having to go to this dance again. It is indeed a broken record. America is evil. Israel is evil. The poor Palestinians are persecuted. This was supposed to be about the response of a US attack on Iraq. But certainly it, like virtually all threads gets off track. Wait till Thunderbolt gets involved We will find out how Jesus really should be living in Saddams Palaces or some such nonsense. But I thought it pertinent to address TF....he said I called him an Anti-Semite. I did not, and I wanted to defend myself. I don't mind being quoted. I do mind when people put words in my mouth. I am done. And I thank you for your indulgence. I will go quietly now Peace whenever possible, rs7
Well if you want my brief take on it... the Palestinians are being persecuted by the Israelis, but the Israelis are also being persecuted by the Palestinians... a fair solution can only be found if there is a left-leaning (Labor) government in power, in combination with someone like Hanan Ashwari (or another moderate 'academic-type' Palestinian leader) calling the shots... There really must be a Palestinian state established as quickly as possible, but there should be guarantees for the security and territorial integrity of the state of Israel within its 1967 borders... whether the world likes it or not, Israel is a permanent fixture, but some chiseling around the edges is most definitely needed... in my opinion, a Palestinian state should eventually constitute the vast majority of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with those gruesome right-wing settlements having been removed from the West Bank... ideally an an attempt should be made to create as many mixed towns as possible (Jews and Arabs living side by side in harmony, as they used to) in both Israel and a future Palestine... that's my brief take...
Candle, I agree with your "solution". And I believe that it is quite like the Camp David Accord. All that is needed is a Palestinian leader that wants peace. And then it would happen very quickly! Peace, rs7
... and an Israeli leader who wants peace too... Sharon and Arafat is unworkable... Rabin and Arafat was marginally workable, but Rabin never lived to produce the results...
One last thought...yeah, lots of persecution going on. But IMO, the worst is the persecution of the Palestinian people by the Palestinian leaders!! Talk about a screwing! Sort of like the persecution of the Saudi people by their leaders. But in that case, it is a ROYAL screwing! PS: Yup, Sharon ain't the guy for peace. But like I said a million times to TF...get rid of Arafat, and the Israelis will vote out Sharon the same day. Gladly!
The Saudi Royals are American-sponsored puppets who have outlived their usefulness to the USA... the best solution would be for the Saudi people to rebel and throw out the Royals (before the USA effects what it calls 'regime change') and also throw out that oil-guzzling Imperialist American military presence, if at all possible... then there would be true self-determination for the citizens of Saudi Arabia... If the USA attacks Iraq, that could provide a catalyst for such a rebellion... and it would hopefully start to spell the beginning of the end of the American stranglehold on the region i.e. American action on Iraq could potentially be a self-defeating act for the USA in the context of the wider region...
to come up with something.. anything to link saddam to terror and al-queda.. wasn't a couple of months back that they they claimed few dozen pounds of uranium was smuggled out trough Turkey for terrorism, and it was only 34 grams, (0.048 pounds) and had nothing to do with Iraq and it was for medical use? And today this: Al Qaeda-Linked Group Got Chemical Weapons From Iraq, U.S. Agents Report the above headline broadcasted in all national news today. But if you end up reading all the way to the bottom of the story: On Thursday, it was reported that the United States and other U.N. countries have actually supplied Iraq with 3.5 million vials of atropine over the past five years for that program. But the U.S. government has been trying to convince the U.N. Security Council to place new restrictions on the sale of atropine, as well as other antibiotics for chemical and biological weapons, to Iraq. The United States argued that although atropine is a "dual-use" item, which has both medicinal and weapons uses, it leaves open a loophole in the war on terror. A source in the intelligence community, however, told Fox News that there's "no evidence to substantiate" the Post story. The source suspects the report "misread elements from five or six unrelated" pieces of intelligence, probably coming from the Iraqi National Congress. The official said with all the pressure the CIA has been under from the White House to document a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda, if there were such a tie, intelligence officials would be happy to leak it. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72833,00.html We want war with Iraq and we will try our best to get it. Troops are there, simulations are taking place everyday, our carriers in the gulf and planes cruising all over the place. Iraq moves a truck with radars and we take them out in a blink of an eye. And they pose a threat to us? How ridiculous. We have more military power than the next 20 nations put together in conventional weapons. Go to nuclear and other hightech area weapons and it's not even worth comparing. And Iraq is a threat? keep the public in constant anxiety and fear ( easy to pass any acts in the background) and keep the focus away from the domestic mess. read: all kinds of handouts to special interest groups, riders in homeland security/patriot act that have nothing to do with security, Ken Lay still free, economy not doing well...the list goes on. Come to think of it, this has been working out fairly well for few special interests... I just hope cool heads prevail.... Josh