POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by candletrader, Dec 8, 2002.

Which of these is most likely?

  1. Co-ordinated large-scale bombings of shopping malls and offices (similar to September 11, but not us

    12 vote(s)
    133.3%
  2. Biological attacks on schools, malls, airports etc

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  3. Highly co-ordinated machine gun mow-downs of crowds by suicide gangs

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. One person suicide bombings (similar to that carried out by Hamas) co-ordinated across numerous smal

    30 vote(s)
    333.3%
  5. Devastating car bombs set to go off amongst traffic queues of commuters crawling into work in the ru

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. It won't be as obvious as any of the above, but it will make September 11 look like a wasp bite com

    26 vote(s)
    288.9%
  7. No repercussions

    95 vote(s)
    1,055.6%
  1. Why argue with this traderfut guy? He obviously has an antisemitic agenda and displays a tendency for revisionist (lies) history to support this agenda.

    Don't give him a mouthpiece.
     
    #191     Dec 12, 2002
  2. It's cool. Hey can you ship me some Cuban cigars?
     
    #192     Dec 12, 2002
  3. Happy to hear it. I also agree with Aphie's words.
    Very convincing speech.


     
    #193     Dec 12, 2002
  4. :)

    Do you know what a semite is????

    I am a semite so don't accuse me of being anti semite, but certainly pro peace and anti the Israeli terrorism payed by american taxes.


    by Robert Jensen

    I helped kill a Palestinian today.

    If you pay taxes to the U.S. government, so did you.

    And unless the policies of the U.S. government change, tomorrow will be no different.

    It is easy for Americans to decry the “cycle of violence” in Palestine, but until we acknowledge our own part in that violence, there is little hope for a just peace in Palestine or the Middle East.

    The first step is to abandon the mythology that the United States is a “neutral broker for peace” in the conflict. A new report by the Institute for Southern Studies shows that in the one-year period after the Sharm el-Sheikh peace agreement in September 1999, the U.S. government pumped $3.6 billion worth of arms into Israel -- an odd policy for a country playing a supposedly neutral role.

    So, when we hear on the news that Israeli tanks are rolling through the cities and refugee camps of the West Bank, we should remember those tanks were made in the United States and purchased by Israel with U.S. aid. The Israeli jets and helicopters used in the assault are American F-16s, Blackhawks and Apaches. Machine guns, grenade launchers, missiles and bombs -- made in the USA, paid for with our tax dollars -- are being used to crush the Palestinian people. That means we must face two realties:

    First, the current Israeli attack on West Bank towns is not a war on terrorism, but part of a long and brutal war against the Palestinian people for land and resources. If Israel is serious about ending terrorism, it would end its 35-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Until it demonstrates a willingness to do that, Israeli calls for peace ring hollow and its attempts to achieve security through force will only make it less secure.

    Second, Israel’s war against the Palestinians would not be possible without U.S. military and economic support -- $3 billion a year in direct aid. While the whole world stands against Israel’s occupation, our government provides the political and diplomatic cover that allows Israel to flout international law. Specific Israeli policies sometimes draw mild criticisms from U.S. leaders, and those criticisms have grown stronger in recent days as Israel has ignored calls for a pullback of forces. But Israel can continue to ignore the international consensus -- and the U.N. Security Council resolutions calling on it to end the occupation -- because of U.S. support.

    U.S. officials recently have distanced themselves from the extreme violence of the Sharon government and the Likud Party, but it is folly to think all would be fine if only a Labor Party government were in power. The differences between the two major parties in Israel are more of style than substance. Take the question of settlements in the occupied territories.

    We are told repeatedly that Israel desperately wants peace. If that is true, why has the number of Israeli settlers living in the West Bank and Gaza almost doubled since the Oslo peace process began nearly a decade ago? Given that those settlements are one of the most serious obstacles to a peaceful solution, why would the Israeli governments -- Labor and Likud alike -- expand settlements in territory it illegally occupies during a so-called peace process?

    The ultimate solution to the conflict in the Middle East is a regional peace conference under an international banner that takes seriously international law. There must be regional arms control, which should be part of a movement to reduce the insane levels of armaments globally (of which the United States is the leading salesperson). The most important contribution the United States could make is to stop blocking that process.

    But right now, the United States can help defuse the immediate crisis by using the leverage its aid to Israel provides. We the American people should pressure our government to make a clear statement: Israel must not only end its current brutal offensive but also must take meaningful steps to end the occupation, and the United States must withdraw support from Israel until it agrees to do so.

    If we fail to do that, then we cannot escape the knowledge that Americans are partly responsible for the next missile fired into a Palestinian town, the next shell lobbed into a Palestinian home, the next Israeli bullet that cuts down an innocent Palestinian.

    --------

    Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin, a member of the Nowar Collective, and author of the book Writing Dissent: Taking Radical Ideas from the Margins to the Mainstream. His pamphlet, “Citizens of the Empire,” is available at http://www.nowarcollective.com/citizensoftheempire.pdf.
    Other writings are available online at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/freelance.htm.
    He can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu.





     
    #194     Dec 12, 2002

  5. :cool:

    A voice of reason.
     
    #195     Dec 12, 2002
  6. wild

    wild

    dgabriel,

    you da man ... hahaha

    whose mouthpiece are you ?

    regards

    wild
     
    #196     Dec 12, 2002
  7. wild

    wild

    #197     Dec 12, 2002
  8. more deflection?

    -----------

    U.S. has photos of secret Iran nuclear sites
    From David Ensor
    CNN Washington Bureau
    Thursday, December 12, 2002 Posted: 5:31 PM EST (2231 GMT)

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States has new evidence that Iran is constructing large nuclear facilities that were secret until now,* according to senior U.S. officials.

    Commercial satellite photographs taken in September show a nuclear facility near the town of Natanz and another one near Arak, the officials said.

    The International Atomic Energy Agency said its inspectors have not been able to visit those sites.

    Knowledgeable U.S. officials say the nuclear facilities are of a type and size that strongly suggest it may be on course to build a nuclear weapon.


    * :D


    -cont-
    http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/12/iran.nuclear/index.html
     
    #198     Dec 12, 2002
  9. Many countries are involved in the arming and support of Palestinian militants. Where is Mr. Jensen's rhetoric on this, or yours Traderfut?

    Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Other Names
    PIJ-Shaqaqi Faction
    PIJ-Shallah Faction
    Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
    Islamic Jihad of Palestine
    Islamic Jihad in Palestine
    Abu Ghunaym Squad of the Hizballah Bayt Al-Maqdis

    Description
    Originated among militant Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the 1970s. Committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through holy war. Because of its strong support for Israel, the United States has been identified as an enemy of the PIJ, but the group has not specifically conducted attacks against US interests in the past. In July 2000, however, publicly threatened to attack US interests if the US Embassy is moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Also opposes moderate Arab governments that it believes have been tainted by Western secularism.

    Activities
    Conducted at least three attacks against Israeli interests in late 2000, including one to commemorate the anniversary of former PIJ leader Fathi Shaqaqi's murder in Malta on 26 October 1995. Conducted suicide bombings against Israeli targets in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Israel.

    Strength
    Unknown.

    Location/Area of Operation
    Primarily Israel and the occupied territories and other parts of the Middle East, including Jordan and Lebanon. Headquartered in Syria.

    External Aid
    Receives financial assistance from Iran and limited logistic assistance from Syria.




    Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)

    Other Names
    none

    Description
    Split from the PFLP in 1968, claiming it wanted to focus more on fighting and less on politics. Violently opposed to Arafat's PLO. Led by Ahmad Jabril, a former captain in the Syrian Army. Closely tied to both Syria and Iran.

    Activities
    Carried out dozens of attacks in Europe and the Middle East during 1970-80. Known for cross-border terrorist attacks into Israel using unusual means, such as hot-air balloons and motorized hang gliders. Primary focus now on guerrilla operations in southern Lebanon, small-scale attacks in Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip.

    Strength
    Several hundred.

    Location/Area of Operation
    Headquartered in Damascus with bases in Lebanon.

    External Aid
    Receives logistic and military support from Syria and financial support from Iran.

    ________________________________________________

    Hizballah (Party of God):


    Other Names
    Islamic Jihad
    Islamic Jihad Organization
    Revolutionary Justice Organization
    Organization of the Oppressed on Earth
    Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine
    Organization of Right Against Wrong
    Ansar Allah
    Followers of the Prophet Muhammed

    Description
    Radical Shia group formed in Lebanon; dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from the area. Strongly anti-West and anti-Israel. Closely allied with, and often directed by, Iran but may have conducted operations that were not approved by Tehran.

    Activities
    Known or suspected to have been involved in numerous anti-US terrorist attacks, including the suicide truck bombing of the US Embassy and US Marine barracks in Beirut in October 1983 and the US Embassy annex in Beirut in September 1984. Elements of the group were responsible for the kidnapping and detention of US and other Western hostages in Lebanon. The group also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and is a suspect in the 1994 bombing of the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires. In fall 2000, it captured three Israeli soldiers in the Shabaa Farms and kidnapped an Israeli noncombatant whom it may have lured to Lebanon under false pretenses.

    Strength
    Several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrrorist operatives.

    Location/Area of Operation
    Operates in the Bekaa Valley, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and southern Lebanon. Has established cells in Europe, Africa, South America, North America, and Asia.

    External Aid
    Receives substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid from Iran and Syria.

    Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP):

    Other Names
    The Red Eagles
    T the Red Eagle Group
    T he Red Eagle Gang
    The Halhul Gang
    The Halhul Squad

    Description
    Marxist-Leninist group founded in 1967 by George Habash as a member of the PLO. Joined the Alliance of Palestinian Forces (APF) to oppose the Declaration of Principles signed in 1993 and suspended participation in the PLO. Broke away from the APF, along with the DFLP, in 1996 over ideological differences. Took part in meetings with Arafat's Fatah party and PLO representatives in 1999 to discuss national unity and the reinvigoration of the PLO but continues to oppose current negotiations with Israel.

    Activities
    Committed numerous international terrorist attacks during the 1970s. Since 1978 has conducted attacks against Israeli or moderate Arab targets, including killing a settler and her son in December 1996.

    Strength
    Some 800.

    Location/Area of Operation
    Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and the occupied territories.

    External Aid
    Receives safehaven and some logistic assistance from Syria.

    _________________________________________
    Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)

    Other Names
    PLF-Abu Abbas

    Description
    Broke away from the PFLP-GC in mid-1970s. Later split again into pro-PLO, pro-Syrian, and pro-Libyan factions. Pro-PLO faction led by Muhammad Abbas (Abu Abbas), who became member of PLO Executive Committee in 1984 but left it in 1991.

    Activities
    The Abu Abbas-led faction is known for hang glider attacks against Israel. Abbas's group also was responsible for the attack in 1985 on the cruise ship Achille Lauro and the murder of US citizen Leon Klinghoffer. A warrant for Abu Abbas's arrest is outstanding in Italy.

    Strength
    Unknown.

    Location/Area of Operation
    PLO faction based in Tunisia until Achille Lauro attack. Now based in Iraq.

    External Aid
    Receives support mainly from Iraq. Has received support from Libya in the past.

    ______________________________________
    Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)

    Other Names
    Fatah Revolutionary Council
    Arab Revolutionary Brigades
    Black September
    Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims
    Description
    International terrorist organization led by Sabri al-Banna. Split from PLO in 1974. Made up of various functional committees, including political, military, and financial.

    Activities
    Has carried out terrorist attacks in 20 countries, killing or injuring almost 900 persons. Targets include the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, moderate Palestinians, the PLO, and various Arab countries. Major attacks included the Rome and Vienna airports in December 1985, the Neve Shalom synagogue in Istanbul and the Pan Am flight 73 hijacking in Karachi in September 1986, and the City of Poros day-excursion ship attack in Greece in July 1988. Suspected of assassinating PLO deputy chief Abu Iyad and PLO security chief Abu Hul in Tunis in January 1991. ANO assassinated a Jordanian diplomat in Lebanon in January 1994 and has been linked to the killing of the PLO representative there. Has not attacked Western targets since the late 1980s.

    Strength
    Several hundred plus militia in Lebanon and limited overseas support structure.

    Location/Area of Operation
    Al-Banna relocated to Iraq in December 1998, where the group maintains a presence. Has an operational presence in Lebanon in the Bekaa Valley and several Palestinian refugee camps in coastal areas of Lebanon. Also has a limited presence in Sudan and Syria, among others, although financial problems and internal disorganization have reduced the group's activities and capabilities. Authorities shut down the ANO's operations in Libya and Egypt in 1999. Has demonstrated ability to operate over wide area, including the Middle East, Asia, and Europe.

    External Aid
    Has received considerable support, including safehaven, training, logistic assistance, and financial aid from Iraq, Libya, and Syria (until 1987), in addition to close support for selected operations.
     
    #199     Dec 12, 2002
  10. Exploding Myths
    Why Israel's war on terrorism is working.
    By Jonathan Chait
    Updated Monday, May 13, 2002, at 1:18 PM PT


    Last week a suicide bomber killed 15 Israelis outside of Tel Aviv. Here is how a New York Times editorial reacted: "But as was sadly demonstrated again yesterday, no amount of military action can stop the suicidal madness. That can only happen if there is Palestinian moderation, Israeli restraint and progress toward an equitable settlement."


    You have probably read sentiments along these lines so many times that this reasoning sounds sensible. But it's complete nonsense. First of all, the bomber came from the radical group Hamas, which openly rejects any peace with Israel and tends to strike anytime progress toward peace appears imminent. So, far from deterring suicide bombings by Hamas, an "equitable settlement" would likely have provoked more. Second, prior to Israel's offensive in the West Bank, suicide bombers were striking at nearly a once-a-day rate. Since then, they've struck at a rate closer to once a month. Third, last week's attacker came from the one location (the Gaza Strip) that Israel didn't target. Imagine if the government gave flu shots to residents of every state except New York. If a flu epidemic then hit New York, would it demonstrate that flu shots can't stop the flu?

    When intelligent people (like the Times editors) believe something so wildly wrong, it's usually because they're in the grip of a theory that helps them to ignore real-world evidence. In this case, the theory is that Palestinians resort to terrorism out of despair. The corollary to this theory is that all Israeli military action will inevitably backfire since it simply makes Palestinians more desperate and angry. For those who believe this—a group consisting of most liberal newspaper editors, the foreign policy establishment, and virtually the entire outside world­—the case against Israeli military action (such as the recent one in the West Bank) is simply an a priori truth.

    This fallacy also ignores history. Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but from Israel's existence. Palestinian terrorism long predates the 1967 occupation; the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed in 1964, three years earlier. But hasn't the more recent phenomenon of suicide bombing come about because of long-simmering Palestinian despair? Not really. Suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which provided Palestinians with their best opportunity for a state. They intensified massively after Israel withdrew from Lebanon and offered a series of generous territorial concessions.

    If anything, then, history suggests that Palestinian violence results not from desperation but from hope. I'm not saying things are quite this simple. People's brains work in different ways. Some Palestinians are radicalized by despair and pacified by hope. For others the reverse is true. But historical facts mesh better with the idea that Palestinian violence results from Israeli weakness than with the idea that it results from Israeli strength. The Palestinians may never really accept Israel's right to exist, but they may make peace if they conclude that destroying Israel is impossible.

    For the sake of argument, though, let's suppose that Israeli military crackdowns did increase the number of Palestinians willing to engage in suicide bombing. It still wouldn't necessarily follow that crackdowns lead to more bombings. Why not? Because the number of suicide attacks depends upon more factors than simply the number of willing martyrs. Successful suicide bombings require plenty of other ingredients: the capacity to get past Israeli security (which necessitates training and, probably, fake identification); the ability to fashion hidden explosive devices; and the explosives themselves. Yes, some bombers use homemade ingredients, but they're far less effective than the professional-grade stuff—such as the explosives that the Palestinian Authority imported from Iran. The choke-point in the production line is almost certainly not the number of volunteers. It's the other ingredients. And it's those ingredients Israel has tried to cut off, by arresting or killing terrorist leaders, seizing bomb-making equipment, and sealing off its borders.

    Of course, this isn't a perfect defense. But the other strategy—placating the Palestinians to the point where none of them are willing to serve as suicide bombers—is almost certainly worse. Even if an Israeli charm offensive could convince an overwhelming majority of Palestinians to reject suicide bombing, even a tiny minority of holdouts—say 100 or 200 volunteers a year out of a population of nearly 4 million—could sustain a massive terror campaign. Trying to protect Israel from suicide bombers by dampening Palestinian despair rather than fighting terrorism directly, then, is sort of like safeguarding your house by trying to give every potential burglar in town a well-paying job rather than installing an alarm.

    Why, then, do so many well-intentioned people persist in subscribing to this fallacy? Because it's intellectually convenient. "Putting aside the debate about the ethics of Israeli policy in the territories," wrote Times columnist Nicholas Kristof last month, summing up the sentiment, "as a practical matter, from Israel's own standpoint, Mr. Sharon's policy so far has been worse than ineffective; it is aggravating the terrorism." The whole appeal of this notion lies in the part about "putting aside the ethics." Denying the effectiveness of Israeli military action forecloses any debate over its morality. It allows you to ignore the difficult trade-offs between Jewish and Arab interests by pretending the two are in perfect alignment: If Israel would halt its military incursions and withdraw from the territories, Palestinians would stop their terrorism, leaving both sides more secure. This makes for a lovely and comforting syllogism. If only it were true.
     
    #200     Dec 12, 2002